Re: [asa] Climate Progress

From: Christine Smith <>
Date: Mon Dec 21 2009 - 12:27:44 EST

Hi Burgy,

I'm sorry, but even as a fellow AGW proponent, I don't see that your arguments here are reasonable. First, I think it is highly unlikely that humanity would go extinct from even the worst climate change scenarios, given the fact that humans are highly intelligent and therefore quite adaptable. Do you have any *evidence* (if that's even possible at this point in time) to support such a monumental possibility? Second, even if that was what we were facing, I would strongly argue that there is no "end" in which *any* means would be morally justified - that kind of ethical "blank check" is completely irresponsible and I would argue, un-Christian. Dictatorships thrive on compulsion, fear, and the deprivation of human rights - these inherently contradict the notion of "love one another as I have loved you" and "do unto others as you would have done unto you". To surrender our highest ideals for the sake of survival on an individual or a societal basis is to
 lose the very HUMANity that we seek to protect. Moreover, it betrays a lack of faith in the Creator and Redeemer of all things, that we would see death/extinction as something so terrible that God could not help us overcome it through other means, whether that be through better human solutions to our problems, or through the ultimate divine promise of the resurrection. I am all for protecting humanity (and the rest of God's creatures) from AGW, but not at the expense of all that makes us human, and indeed all that makes us Christian.

In Christ,

"For we walk by faith, not by sight" ~II Corinthians 5:7

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--- On Mon, 12/21/09, John Burgeson (ASA member) <> wrote:

> From: John Burgeson (ASA member) <>
> Subject: Re: [asa] Climate Progress
> To: "Schwarzwald" <>
> Cc:
> Date: Monday, December 21, 2009, 10:36 AM
> I suggest the reason you can't reason
> with me is that we begin with
> such different worldviews. That is too bad.
> Blessings on you.
> Burgy
> On 12/16/09, Schwarzwald <>
> wrote:
> > John,
> >
> > I would still prefer the worst of a global
> dictatorship to an
> >> alternative of hunanity being wiped out. Humanity
> might recover from
> >> the first; not from the second.
> >>
> >
> > And if humanity isn't going to be wiped out? If
> humanity will experience
> > threats, maybe even major threats, but still survive?
> >
> > What's more - exactly why do you care whether or not
> humanity gets "wiped
> > out"? You have zero problem "wiping out" most of
> humanity anyway,
> > apparently, so long as you consider it necessary. Or
> for a good cause.
> >
> > Haha. Right now I have 12 grandchildren, and so I
> assume there will be
> >> more than a single great grandchild coming along.
> >>
> >
> > Are you at all aware of the estimated "carbon
> footprint" and environmental
> > impact for people born in the west? You've already
> seen claims that our
> > "reproduction problem" is being blamed for quite a lot
> of the environmental
> > woes. I point out that what you're doing is, by their
> definition, harming
> > the earth on a huge individual level - and you laugh
> it off?
> >
> > Again: Are you advising them to sterilize themselves?
> >
> >> Quotes from the Heartland Institute: "Give me
> liberty or give me death.",
> >> >I believe the quote goes. "No king but Jesus"
> goes another, I hear.
> >>
> >> Mark Twain once said it. "The last refuge of a
> rascal is to wrap
> >> himself in the flag.."
> >>
> >
> > You altered my lines to have me quoting the Heartland
> Institute? Which isn't
> > even the source of either quote?
> >
> > Worse, you think those quotes are me "wrapping myself
> in the flag"? Are
> > those exclusively American sentiments, John?
> >
> >
> >> If humanity gets wiped out -- who will be around
> to curse?
> >>
> >
> > I can't reason with you, clearly. You'll embrace quite
> a lot, so long as the
> > threat is adequate. But at least you're illustrating
> the mentality of some
> > AGW proponents.
> >
> > Again, depending on what turns the debate takes, your
> great grandchildren
> > may not end up cursing the names of who you think they
> will.
> >
> --
> Burgy
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Received on Mon Dec 21 12:28:00 2009

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