Re: [asa] Dawkins on the fossil record

From: Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com>
Date: Fri Dec 11 2009 - 20:51:32 EST

Hi Bernie,

"I disagree big time. Because it affects theology critically. If by the
miracle of creationism (YEC) then there's a literal Adam, a literal fall
from grace from eating a piece of forbidden fruit, no death before the fall,
vegetarian T-Rex's and alligators, a worldwide flood, etc. But if through
evolution and billions of years, a theology like that of Denis Lamoureux is
possible (denying all of the above). It is a very different view of God,
and how God interacts with his creatures."

Yes, people can have different views of God and history. Heck, people have
different views of me, so I am not aure what this is all that relevant. You
did not address the core of my position/argument.

Look at it this way. You and I both agree we came into existence via
evolution, which means our bodies are deeply connected to natural history.
I would also assume that you would agree with me that our bodies are an
essential aspect of our identities. Yet we would disagree in that while I
think God intended us to exist, you don't think God exists. Fine. But if
you did agree with me on this latter point, you would see that I am correct
in saying "it doesn't matter." If my body came into existence through
evolution, and my body is (at least) part of my identity, then it had to be
that way if God intended me to exist.

-Mike

PS: If you feel more comfortable talking about different views of God,
perhaps you should make the case more rigorously. Can you say, for example,
that Paul Nelson's view of God and salvation that are more similar to a
Muslim or Hindu creationist than those of Denis Lamoureux (a Christian
evolutionist)?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
To: <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins on the fossil record

> Nucacids said:
> "My outlook is very comprehensive. My theological perspective is outlined
> here (and in the entries that follow):
> http://shadowtolight.wordpress.com/2009/06/13/because-of-us/:"
>
> "So how did we come into existence? Was it the miracle of Creationism? Was
> it the natural law and evolutionary convergence of Conway Morris or
> Denton? Was it by front-loading evolution? Or was it the mixture of
> natural selection and contingency as outlined by Dawkins and Gould?
> Answer - it doesn't matter."
>
> I disagree big time. Because it affects theology critically. If by the
> miracle of creationism (YEC) then there's a literal Adam, a literal fall
> from grace from eating a piece of forbidden fruit, no death before the
> fall, vegetarian T-Rex's and alligators, a worldwide flood, etc. But if
> through evolution and billions of years, a theology like that of Denis
> Lamoureux is possible (denying all of the above). It is a very different
> view of God, and how God interacts with his creatures.
>
> I think your approach encourages the current church slumber on these
> issues. "Questions on origins? Forget it, it isn't important." That's
> what I heard at church.
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nucacids [mailto:nucacids@wowway.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 6:58 PM
> To: Dehler, Bernie; asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins on the fossil record
>
> Hi Bernie,
>
> My outlook is very comprehensive. My theological perspective is outlined
> here (and in the entries that follow):
>
> http://shadowtolight.wordpress.com/2009/06/13/because-of-us/
>
> Thus far, no one has provided a reason to think I am wrong, so I persist
> with this perspective.
>
> My outlook with regard to teleology and life entails a comprehensive view
> seeks to understand the relation between teleology and life in an
> open-ended
> and open-minded manner. And again, thus far, no one has provided a reason
> to think I am wrong, so I persist with this perspective.
>
> Mike
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> To: <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:44 PM
> Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins on the fossil record
>
>
>>" Why focus on one example rather than the wider question?"
>>
>> Because I was wondering if he was being one-sided in giving God glory for
>> all the good but not considering the 'bad.' I was wondering if his
>> outlook was comprehensive, or narrow-minded.
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>> Behalf Of gordon brown
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:33 PM
>> To: asa@calvin.edu
>> Subject: RE: [asa] Dawkins on the fossil record
>>
>> On Wed, 2 Dec 2009, Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Nucacids said:
>>> ?Think of it as random mutations + natural selection under control.?
>>>
>>> Under whose control, God?s control? And if so, does that control include
>>> the
>>> bad as well as the good (for example, birth defects due to bad gene
>>> copies)? If so, you are saying God purposely causes the bad as well as
>>> the
>>> good, when it comes to genetics? And by ?bad? I mean ?harmful.?
>>>
>>
>> This is just a particular example of the problem of evil. Why focus on
>> one
>> example rather than the wider question?
>>
>> See Genesis 50:20 and Romans 8:28.
>>
>> Gordon Brown (ASA member)
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>
>
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Received on Fri Dec 11 20:51:46 2009

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