Re: [asa] New Age Cults and the Georgia Guidestones

From: Randy Isaac <randyisaac@comcast.net>
Date: Wed Dec 09 2009 - 15:06:09 EST

Good work on the fine structure constant.
You're probably glad your name isn't connected with this equation that was
just announced.
http://ashnews.org/MoonandEarthEngineered.aspx

Randy

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:33 PM
To: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>;
"AmericanScientificAffiliation" <asa@calvin.edu>
Subject: RE: [asa] New Age Cults and the Georgia Guidestones

> Hi Bernie,
> You seem to be fixated on “God did it” too much. When I study the physical
> aspect of Nature, which is what a physicist does, I do not bring God into
> the models I use to describe Nature. How can I anyway? You try it while
> doing physics. I have done work on the Big Bang and never invoked God.
> These models are helpful in our attempt to understand the workings of
> Nature. Such models are representations of Nature, facsimiles of it, but
> not the real thing. Models are very much like a map of a city. [BTW, all
> our mental constructs of thoughts are actual models of our perceptions,
> sensations, and memories.]
> I really do not care how life came into being---God or no God. It is a
> very difficult scientific problem. Period. There is no sense of banging
> one’s head against the wall and achieve nothing but a headache. One
> attacks problems that one has a change to solve. One should not delude
> oneself thinking of solving very difficult problem. Sometimes the solution
> may fall in your lap. Witness Maxwell and his discovery that light is an
> example of an electromagnetic wave. Do you think Maxwell was looking for
> that? Similarly, Dirac suggested the existence of antiparticles when he
> combined relativity and quantum mechanics. Dirac did not know what would
> come out of his studies but he thought that such unification ought to be
> attempted.
> Why did me, as a Christian, work in the very early universe. Well, I had
> some ideas that I could carry out and was interested in the consequences
> of my ideas. The results were interesting and thus I published them. In
> fact, a noticed a numerical coincidence that lead me to write an
> expression of the fine-structure constant in terms of other fundamental
> constants. [My formula appears in the famous book, “The anthropic
> cosmological principle” by Barrow and Tipler.]
> Scientists really deal with the physical, regardless how it came into
> being. Whether God brought the whole shebang into being and upholds it or
> not is not at all relevant to physics. The question of origin is not at
> all important in 99.99% of the physics that gives rise to all the
> applications that we all enjoy.
> Let me repeat, physicists, I would say scientists in general, are not
> interested in ontological questions, e.g., how did the whole thing came
> into being. Of course, we are getting to areas of physics where such
> questions are being asked. However, such areas are notoriously
> speculative. You may be interest in this letter I wrote, “Can science
> make the "breath" of God part of its subject matter?”
> http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7049/is_3_60/ai_n28562903/
> Hope this helps.
> Merry Christmas Bernie,
> Moorad
>
> ________________________________________
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of
> Dehler, Bernie [bernie.dehler@intel.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 12:24 PM
> To: AmericanScientificAffiliation
> Subject: RE: [asa] New Age Cults and the Georgia Guidestones
>
> Hi Moorad, you said:
>
> "No serious scientist who is a Christian says, "God did it" and so there
> is no sense of trying to find out how."
>
> Ok- so you think Christian scientists will look to unravel mysteries even
> if they think God may have done it by miracle.
>
> But you said earlier:
> "However, I think the attempt to solve the problem of the origin of life
> may be a waste of time. It seems to be a very difficult problem since one
> has no idea of how to characterize life in terms of purely physical
> terms."
>
> Are you saying it is a waste of time because maybe God did it by miracle,
> so looking is futile? Or are you saying it may be a waste of time because
> the mystery is so huge with so little clues? Or do you think both?
>
> If a Christian thinks that God made the big-bang 'de novo,' then why
> bother wasting time on a naturalistic explanation with string theory and
> multiverse theory?
>
> I would think that if I were a theist I'd argue that a theist might have
> the upper hand because they wouldn't waste time looking for naturalistic
> answers to supernatural events, thereby freeing themselves to work on real
> problems instead of impossible problems. In this way, if it turns out
> there is no God, the atheist scientist wins, and makes new discoveries on
> the frontiers of science. But if there's a God, the theist is much more
> efficient working on real issues while the atheist spins his wheels in the
> mud of frustration, looking for answers and causes where none exist.
>
> So bottom line, I don't understand how a theist, who thinks God made the
> big-bang 'de novo,' would be motivated to work on trying to determine what
> brought the big-bang into existence. Can you enlighten me? It seems like
> it would be working directly opposite their convictions. (If it was
> working just for the paycheck, I'd understand that, as many people do
> that; but I don't se other reasons available.)
>
> ...Bernie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alexanian, Moorad [mailto:alexanian@uncw.edu]
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 1:48 PM
> To: Dehler, Bernie; AmericanScientificAffiliation
> Subject: RE: [asa] New Age Cults and the Georgia Guidestones
>
> Bernie,
>
> One of my attitudes towards doing research in physics is that of attacking
> the problems that I think I can solve. I think any scientist who is
> attracted to the problem of finding how life originated ought just to do
> honest research. However, I think the attempt to solve the problem of the
> origin of life may be a waste of time. It seems to be a very difficult
> problem since one has no idea of how to characterize life in terms of
> purely physical terms.
>
> I do not think that a person who believes that reality is more than the
> physical is handicapped when doing science. In fact, his/her space of
> thought is wider than that of the atheist. It is like the old saying, "two
> heads are better than one."
>
> Bernie, you must realize that when one is dealing with profound problems,
> the problems may be more in the realm of the ontological thus beyond
> science. Science does not deal with notions of existence and so may not be
> equipped to solve deep problems, say, like how the universe came into
> existence, etc.
>
> No serious scientist who is a Christian says, "God did it" and so there is
> no sense of trying to find out how. In fact, just as you can look at the
> paintings of your favorite artist, you may want to go beyond the mere
> physical and know something about the author of the art form. That is what
> many Christian who are scientists do.
>
> Merry Christmas,
>
> Moorad
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie
> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 12:07 PM
> To: AmericanScientificAffiliation
> Subject: RE: [asa] New Age Cults and the Georgia Guidestones
>
> Moorad said:
> "I am not saying that an atheist cannot search the truth and know without
> presupposing the above; but the atheist's way of knowing can be consistent
> with the above yet inconsistent with his stated beliefs."
>
> I think the atheist has the advantage. That is because the driving force
> for the atheist is to find a naturalistic solution, and all modern
> science, and breakthroughs, have to do with naturalistic understanding.
> Not one breakthrough or anything in science is based on a supernatural
> premise. Therefore, the supernatural can only be viewed as scientific
> baggage, I think.
>
> For example... How did life originate? A Christian could say "Who cares,
> God did it." The atheist will search for an answer, knowing there has to
> be a natural explanation, because God and the supernatural don't exist.
> The Christian scientist then may tag along because it sounds like an
> interesting investigation, and there is some attention to be gained if any
> breakthroughs are found. But the Christian is not fully, 100%, convinced
> in the search for a naturalistic explanation since "God did it" (de novo)
> could be a possible answer for any scientific investigation that is on the
> fringe of understanding (origin of life, multiverse, etc.).
>
> Now if ID has a hypothesis of supernatural intervention and that becomes
> accepted by scientific peers, then we will have a watershed event which
> will overturn all modern views of science.
>
> As I understand it, the scientists of old were mainly Christians because
> it was a Christian-controlled field. Now that scientists can be secular
> (religion not an issue), I wonder if there will be any Christians on the
> leading edge of new discoveries on the really fuzzy frontiers where it is
> easiest for Christians to day "God did it" (de novo style). Origin of
> life and multiverse theory are the two interesting frontiers, I think.
> Probably also is the search for extra-terrestrials.
>
> ...Bernie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Alexanian, Moorad
> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:50 AM
> To: John Walley; AmericanScientificAffiliation
> Subject: RE: [asa] New Age Cults and the Georgia Guidestones
>
> I truly believe that the Christian faith is the correct metaphysics to
> regulate all the different kinds of knowledge we have. I do not want to
> enumerate how that is so for each kind of knowledge, including science.
> Note I said to regulate and not to make direct implications.
>
> As a Christian, I am pleased that our faith is guided by searching the
> truth. "And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
> John 8:32.
> "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came
> into being that has come into being." John 1:3.
>
> "...resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ
> Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."
> Colossians 2:2-3.
> Of course, some of these cannot be used to do science. Nonetheless, one
> can find that violations of the above ontological statements would
> undermine science, epistemology, etc.
>
> I am not saying that an atheist cannot search the truth and know without
> presupposing the above; but the atheist's way of knowing can be consistent
> with the above yet inconsistent with his stated beliefs.
>
> Merry Christmas to you all,
>
> Moorad
>
> ________________________________________
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of
> John Walley [john_walley@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 10:43 PM
> To: AmericanScientificAffiliation
> Subject: [asa] New Age Cults and the Georgia Guidestones
>
> This is one of the reasons why I have always had a hard time taking AGW
> serious as a Christian concern. About 60 miles from my house is this
> modern day Stonehenge like monument that was built anonymously years ago
> with the New Age 10 Commandments engraved in it in all the major languages
> of the world.
>
> The first and foremost commandment is: 1. Maintain humanity under
> 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
>
> Although I am not a mathematician, by my calculations that means about 90%
> of us have to go. So that would be 2-3 of those of us that are regular
> posters on this list.
>
> Why would anyone build this? And why would anyone believe this? And what
> are we supposed to make of it? But my concern is that if we hand over the
> kind of power and control we are talking about in AGW legislation to the
> government and some of these New Age occultists get into power, it could
> be dire. As Christians, are not any of you others concerned about this?
>
> John
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones
>
>
>
>
>
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Received on Wed Dec 9 15:06:33 2009

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