Re: [asa] Star of Bethlehem presentation?

From: Merv Bitikofer <>
Date: Sun Nov 22 2009 - 08:33:00 EST

Okay -- you uncover my weakness! Maybe this (the whole star
presentation) is one of my few remaining concessions to concordism. I
guess as long as I don't try to make my faith lean to heavily (or at
all) on our modern speculation about process, I'll probably be okay.
But just for the record, theologically speaking, I don't find the notion
of a sovereign God orchestrating the events of our universe to be far
out. Indeed I have faith that such is the case even if I can't make
complete sense of that scientifically or philosophically. Where science
(if it is legitimately done) may happen to reveal such things, I find it
fascinating. Where science (if its legitimately done) would correct an
errant understanding of history, it is the truth-seeker's job (mine and
yours) to stand corrected.


David Clounch wrote:
> Merv,
> It has never occurred to me to attribute it to cosmic phenomena
> period. In spite of the astronomers looking for a cosmic explanation.
> I just ignored that. After all, I also don't believe St Nick was Santa
> Claus, and I don't believe in weeping statues or the shroud of Turin.
> (However, I do believe in St Patrick. [see footnote 1])
> But on the other hand, one thing I've never noticed is anybody looking
> for a non cosmic explanation.
> I'm not naysaying Larson. Never heard of him. But I've been reading
> these cosmic theories for decades. I think they were invented in
> modern times by folks looking for a way that God didn't really get
> involved in the advent. There are philosophical camps that prefer that
> sort of explanation, and theologians that follow those camps of
> thought. But I am skeptical. The idea that God pre-programmed the
> universe to give just the right solar system is ... far out? For
> example, maybe the universe was also pre-programmed to produce the
> pyramids without any humans getting involved? Maybe the egyptians
> discovered them? *cough* *cough*
> I once went to a church where the pastor taught that the
> constellations were placed where they are in order to tell the advent
> story as a prophecy. And that all ancients knew the story. But the
> pagans changed the story. The thing about this is, for a TE type
> theory, one must believe that God pre-programmed all the galaxy to
> present the "movie in the sky" so as to support the Christ story.
> That to me is on the same level as the cosmic Star of Bethlehem
> hypothesis. Its too complicated. Its easier to believe in UFO's.
> (where angels have power, or technology, or both). And the latter
> doesn't conflict with scripture in any way I know of.
> OK, I'll look at Larson since you guys are so impressed with him.
> Where was he when I was a kid having heaps of BS poured on me? ;)
> Thanks,
> Dave C
> [footnote 1]
> ====================================
> I do however, believe in St Patrick (who BTW wasn't a (S)aint with a
> capital s.
> He was kidnapped in 401AD at the age of 16 and taken to Ireland as a
> slave but escaped 6 years later. I've been reading "How The Irish
> Saved Civilization" by Thomas Cahill. Patrick established the first
> Christian civilization in the world that wasn't a co-blend with
> roman ways. So, there's a myth that wasn't a myth. My personal
> interest is it took these Christians over 100 years to convert Clan
> McCarthy who lived in Munster (SW Ireland). I've been tracing my
> ancestors. So far the earliest goes back to 123 AD. Only the Jews
> have an older family lineage than the McCarthy clan. Anyway, along
> the way I discovered that Irish missionaries to Europe established
> monastaries all over Europe. This after Rome was long gone. For
> example, Salzburg and Vienna were both founded as monasteries and
> later grew into towns then cities. The important part is these monks
> took books, including the classics, with them. Thus they preserved the
> pre-dark age knowledge. I had never heard any of this before looking
> at Irish history. You see, American education focuses on the British
> founders, and covers the Irish only at the point of the great
> immigrations. Irish culture is COMPLETELY IGNORED in American education.
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Merv Bitikofer <
> <>> wrote:
> Mr. Larson (the here discussed Star of Bethlehem researcher) is
> way ahead of you David. You should actually read his stuff before
> you nay say it. I guess John posted some excerpts which might
> summarize some of his points pretty well. I went in as a skeptic,
> but came out impressed with his methods of inquiry. He does
> approach it unapologetically as a Christian and with the stated
> assumption that he is going to take the Biblical record of the
> event seriously. Far be it from me to hold that against him. He
> does come away convinced that it was an astronomical event ----
> but nothing so silly as we try to imagine that would hover in the
> air and stop over a stable, etc. You must have a lot of trouble
> understanding apocalyptic literature in Revelation with its stars
> falling out of the sky! :-> For that matter, I do too. But I
> guess, for all my confusion, it hasn't occurred to me to actually
> try to take it as literal commentary on cosmic movements according
> to 20th century definition!
> --Merv

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Received on Sun Nov 22 08:33:20 2009

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