Re: [asa] Re: On the Barr-West exchange and ID/TE

From: Gregory Arago <>
Date: Tue Nov 17 2009 - 16:29:17 EST

Hi Murray, I wouldn't take the American media (or Metanexus) too heavily on this... But I too "challenge Darwinian evolution's fitness to survive", along with many others, including biologists like Lynn Margulis - she does it out loud and proud! Do you know that being 'post-Darwinian' is not so bad around the world today, rather progressive even in some cases? ASA issued a statement saying "We believe in creation!" ( Does that make everyone in ASA a 'creationist'? No. (Just like *always* going into foreign conflicts with America doesn't bring one a peaceful international name! Australians usually are friendly people!) From one of the articles you cite: “Evolution is God’s way of creating.” I'd be much more comfortable with less exclusive language: 'evolution is *one* of God's ways of creating.' There are other ways too! Can this possibly be acknowledged by TEs? Behe is not a YEC. Does he have certain things in 'common' with YECs? Sure he does. As do you and I, Murray! Wrt naivety, optimism and uncertainty, I'd say exactly the same thing about most TEs I've ever heard. Not the one's who are ascribed to being 'TE' by others, mind you, but the ones who actually call themselves by that confusing concept duo. They are most surely not in the avant garde either! “The teaching that we ought to treat others as we would like to be treated,” Furton said, “is incompatible with a philosophy of the survival of fittest.” Wouldn't you call that anti-Darwinian, or at least anti-Spencerian? Darwin used Spencer's terms in his own writing, we should remember. The British naturalist took from the British social philosopher to suit his agnostic purposes. Boo on Victorian England for this anti-Christian legacy! Gregory p.s. thanks for the link! in the words of Behe: "much of our view on the way the world works is based on sociology" : ) p.p.s. as for Lonergan, as a fellow canadian i'd agree within limits, and surely would want to set up a debate between Bernard and Pitirim at the earliest possible date; they were both integralists, you see!   ________________________________ From: Murray Hogg <> To: ASA <> Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 11:32:43 PM Subject: Re: [asa] Re: On the Barr-West exchange and ID/TE Gregory Arago wrote: > O.k. Ted, since Rich is not answering me because doing so would be putting the lie to his assertation about ID and YEC being so closely connected, Hi Greg, I've been reflecting upon reports of a recent presentation given by Behe at a recent Catholic conference on ID and creationism; Even acknowledging the possibility of, and so allowing for, distortion in these reports and the fact that I haven't any access to the proceedings, I'd offer the suggestion that no reasonable person would deny that Behe's presence at the conference indicates that there is, indeed, some sort of connection between at least one prominent ID leader and YEC. So the question becomes "what sort of connection"? Personally, it seems to me that Behe suffers from naivete, optimism, and uncertainty in equal measure. Uncertainty in that he seems to sense some sort of tension between the ideas of Irreducible Complexity and evolution - he certainly can't hold BOTH with assurance and his writings seem to me quite clear that he considers this far from a closed book. Optimism in that he hopes his work might lead YEC's generally to acknowledge that evolution is, by and large, a scientifically well grounded theory. Naivety in that he thinks that - in the absence of any strong comment by himself one way or the other - people will refrain from drawing their own conclusions. I'm not saying that Behe is a YEC - but as you yourself routinely point out in respect of TE's unguarded advocacy of "evolution" - if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, it's probably going to give the broader public the perception that it is, indeed, a duck. Blessings, Murray To unsubscribe, send a message to with "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message. __________________________________________________________________ Connect with friends from any web browser - no download required. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger for the Web BETA at

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Received on Tue Nov 17 16:29:48 2009

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