Re: [asa] (Hitler) morals/ethics

From: Schwarzwald <>
Date: Wed Oct 21 2009 - 23:41:08 EDT

Heya Bernie,

> I can't confirm or deny it. *But I would defend the idea that culture has
> evolved to a better place than ever.* The ultimate will be a one-world
> government of sorts, the only way I think to eliminate nukes. We are seeing
> movement towards that with the EC and other joint groups. Obama is also
> making movement towards working with other national leaders as peers, unlike
> Bush.
Evolved to a better place than ever? The ultimate will be a one-world

Sorry, Bernie, but you're still thinking like a Christian, or a religious
believer. You're talking as if evolution and nature has a direction, an
ultimate and inevitable goal, and that there is actual, objective progress
at work in nature. That's not consistent atheist talk, at least not
naturalist-materialist talk. That's Teilhard de Chardin. That's Frank
Tipler's Omega Point. It's Revelation, it's many things - but in the end,
it's eschatology. Even Robert Wright, a self-identified materialist and
agnostic, realized that the argument you're essentially offering up here
was, in effect, an argument for the existence of God or divinity.

Of course, you can defend the idea that "the culture has evolved to a better
place than ever". But if you're a thoroughgoing materialist-naturalist,
"better" is nothing but a subjective judgment call on your part - in other
words, things aren't *really* better, you just like certain things. On the
other hand, if you're utterly inconsistent, you can argue that there really
*is* an objective and true standard for morals and values, and therefore an
actual and real "better" for there to be. You can even insist it's
inevitable that things are going to get "better", that this improvement is
an inescapable part of nature, and eventually will lead to some manner of
utopia. In other words, you can be religious. You can even believe in God if
you want - hey, if you're going to be inconsistent, the sky's the limit.

One warning: If you're going to be religious, you're going to have to deal
with skeptics pointing out how irrational you are. Guys like me, actually,
getting a kick out of naive claims like 'Groups of countries forming
alliances and cooperating is proof the world is moving to a better place!'
In which case, here's some more evidence for the world's inevitable
improvement: Just about every war ever. Why, World War 2 had communist
Russia cooperating with capitalist America cooperating with the UK they
fought a revolution against! And after the war, well, Russia managed to
unify quite a number of nations under its flag! North Korea strongly desires
reunification with South Korea! So much cooperation and desire for unity -
it's enough to make one's heart burst! Assuming the firm believer in utopia
has good aim, anyway.

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Received on Wed Oct 21 23:41:37 2009

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