RE: [asa] Berlinski vs. the New Atheists

From: Dehler, Bernie <>
Date: Wed Oct 21 2009 - 13:58:22 EDT

Berlinski strikes me as a NOT straight-shooter. He's also quite perplexing (and weird).

The talk about a $300 book is self-congratulatory. You can look right now at and see them for $20 (in new condition). The whole discussion about not knowing why the publisher wouldn't do a paperback seems like BS to the max. Berlinski said he didn't know the reason... riiiigggghhht. As if he asked the publisher and they said "We aren't telling" or ignored him. Oh yeah. More conspiracy theory- the atheist elites didn't want to see it published. What a worn-out lame excuse. You know for these publishers is more about the money.

At time 2:19:14 he says there's no such thing as a scientific method. Is he smoking crack in his cigar?

At time 2:34:30 he says mathematics is theology. I guess he re-filled his pipe with some good stuff. And oh yah, he says theology is mathematics, too.

At time 2:39:20. His biggest objection to evolution: The theory doesn't say anything. It can't be falsified. Just wave the wand over any difficulties with evolution.

At time 2:44:00 Multiverse is bad theory because of Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is "God did it" so that is the best answer.

What a strange weirdo to be lifting up as a figurehead for ID, in my opinion.

BTW, the first I heard of Berlinski was in the Expelled movie. I thought it was interesting that they got an intellectual (supposedly unbiased) to speak for ID, so I looked him up on the internet. Surprise, surprise, he works for the Discovery Institute, which was NEVER mentioned in the movie. Dishonest (which means immoral, for those interested in the moral discussion).

From: [] On Behalf Of Gregory Arago
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 1:25 PM
To: Cameron Wybrow; asa
Subject: Re: [asa] Berlinski vs. the New Atheists

thank for the link! yeah, Berlinski is a unique fellow. there is much to the 'new atheists' that many TEs don't seem to take seriously, yet which nevertheless provides food for thought. one needn't be a 'culture warrior' to be stimulated by this sort of stuff. but he does seem quite confident in himself, doesn't he, this Berlinski? perhaps because of his foundation-education in mathematics; he seems to think he knows 'reality' yet at the same time still accepts that he is a secular Jew. and he responds 'not yet' to being called 'religious.' it is almost as if he realizes there is a better path to walk, on a *personal* level, but for some reason doesn't want to walk it. i listened to at least 20 minutes of the discussion, but wonder if he has gone on record about why he doesn't accept the 'reality of religion' in his own life. if this were accepted, then he could potentially transform himself into being a 'religious Jew', perhaps on the basis of his acceptance of logical, rational, emotional or intuitive belief in the 'real' existence of an 'Intelligent Designer.' so much for the pure mathematics of it, don't you agree, Cameron?

From: Cameron Wybrow <>
To: asa <>
Sent: Tue, October 20, 2009 7:06:28 PM
Subject: [asa] Berlinski vs. the New Atheists

As there seems to be a fair bit of interest in refuting the "new atheists" here, people might be interested to know that David Berlinski's book, The Devil's Delusion, has finally been re-issued in paperback. (The hardcover sold out in two months last year, and the original publisher inexplicably refused to put out a second print run, or a paperback! So a new publisher has put out the paperback.)

Berlinski has been in the States promoting the book. There is a substantial new interview with him which is very good. He discusses the flaws in the arguments of the new atheists, but also religion and science generally. Information and links are here:

As the interviewer points out, in no way can Berlinski's critique of certain leading scientific personalities and theories (including neo-Darwinism) be construed as based on fundamentalism or literalism of any kind, as he's not even a Christian, but identifies himself as a secular Jew. And Berlinski is just a joy to listen to, formidably learned and articulate, yet in a sense a rebel against the elite scientific and cultured class that he belongs to. He does not worship what they worship, and he does not flatter what they flatter, and he does not cringe before their opinion. He's also delightfully witty, and one thing that is very much missing in all the Darwinism-ID-TE debates is a sense of humour.

I missed the book last year, and wasn't going to pay $200 for an e-bay copy, so I haven't read it yet. But I imagine it is very good.


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Received on Wed Oct 21 13:58:54 2009

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