Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark

From: Murray Hogg <muzhogg@netspace.net.au>
Date: Mon Oct 19 2009 - 19:47:54 EDT

Oh, yeah, posting limits....

I'll have to make this the last of the day also...

"He no responded..." was an abominable typo - it should have read;

"He responded to George's remark..."

So you (Bernie) DID respond - I just think you didn't quite get your position straight before you did.

Bye for now.

Murray

Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> "After the last two posts, I'm wondering if I'm not showing mild signs of dementia myself..."
>
> Yes, we are all wondering the same thing! ;-)
>
> "He no responded to George's remark that "many atheists have no clear
> basis for their ethics" with "neither do Christians"."
>
> I will respond... I hit posting limits. Patience. It is a fruit of the Spirit.
>
> ...Bernie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Murray Hogg
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 4:12 PM
> To: ASA
> Subject: Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>
> After the last two posts, I'm wondering if I'm not showing mild signs of dementia myself...
>
> Murray Hogg wrote:
>> Hi Bill,
>>
>> And this was precisely Merv's point;
>>
>> Bernie wants to argue that Christians have no moral basis, AND that they
>> are hypocrites for not following it.
>>
>> But I guess this is understandable given Bernie's confusion on the
>> entire question at hand.
>>
>> He no responded to George's remark that "many atheists have no clear
>> basis for their ethics" with "neither do Christians".
>>
>> But no sooner has he acknowledged that "neither" many atheists nor
>> Christians (Who? Bernie? Sweeping generalization? Never...) have no
>> clear basis for ethics then he jumps up with the claim that we can
>> together establish an ethical understanding on the basis of "decency and
>> reason".
>>
>> So what is it? "We" do, or we don't have a basis? The basis is, or it
>> isn't, "decency and reason"?
>>
>> You work it out, mate - I'm trying to get some obstreperous 19th century
>> German nihilist away from my computer. Logical consistency (there's that
>> concept again!) suggests that he at least can't make any moral complaint
>> about my choice of method.
>>
>> Scene cuts to Murray's computer where a frazzled German philosopher sits
>> furiously typing away.
>>
>> Murray approaches with something hidden behind his back;
>>
>> Murray: "Now, come here Friedrich, and see the nice base-ball bat..."
>>
>> Nietszche: "But you can't...!"
>>
>> Murray: "Can't"? What do you mean "can't"? I am the ‹bermensch...
>>
>> Scene closes with the sound of baseball bat striking Friedrich square on
>> the noggin...
>>
>> Blessings,
>> Murray
>>
>> Bill Powers wrote:
>>> Bernie:
>>>
>>> It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself.
>>>
>>> You say, as I understand it, that
>>>
>>> 1) Some Christians, believing Israel is God's Chosen People, give that
>>> a higher priority than some moral evaluation on some particular behavior.
>>>
>>> 2) That they aren't making their judgments on the basis of "equality."
>>>
>>> I assume by the last that you are saying that their judgments are not
>>> fair in some sense, but they are applying their judgments according to
>>> whom is doing something.
>>>
>>> Let's assume that (1) and (2) are true. Do they imply that they have
>>> no "basis" for their morality, as you claim?
>>>
>>> It seems to me that you postulate a basis in (1). You object that
>>> this is immoral on some other basis, one I presume you hold to. It is
>>> not clear on what "basis" you evaluate the "basis" given in (1).
>>>
>>> Isn't this part of the problem?
>>>
>>> bill
>>>
>>> On Mon, 19 Oct 2009, Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>>>
>>>> George said:
>>>> "I've tried to bear in mind. & one weakness of the position of many
>>>> atheists is that they have no clear basis for their ethics."
>>>>
>>>> Neither do Christians.
>>>>
>>>> Take any controversial subject and there are different opinions with
>>>> Christians. Of course, those who disagree are the "wrong" Christians
>>>> or don't interpret the Bible correctly.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes Christians are the enemy to peace, such in Israel where
>>>> they are one-sided pro-Israel because Israel is God's chosen people.
>>>> Morals and ethics go out the window on that one with Pastor John
>>>> Hagee's CUFI (and they say they have a clear Biblical basis for
>>>> this). The Israeli's can do no wrong because they are God's people
>>>> and that is their land, they say. There is no sense of doing what's
>>>> right or fair from an equality standpoint. Of course, some
>>>> Christians rightly rebuke Hagee and CUFI. But CUFI makes a lot of
>>>> noise, and I don't think there is a counter Christian group standing
>>>> up and shouting for real justice. In this way, the Christians are
>>>> creating havoc in the world, because so much terrorisms etc., stems
>>>> from the Israeli issue. Even Christians suffer in Israel, something
>>>> pro-Israel Christians seem to be indifferent or blind to.
>>>>
>>>> ...Bernie
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
>>>> On Behalf Of Ted Davis
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 7:39 AM
>>>> To: ASA; Dave Wallace; gmurphy10@neo.rr.com; Gregory Arago
>>>> Cc: David Opderbeck
>>>> Subject: Re: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA
>>>> snark
>>>>
>>>> I echo George' point, Gregory. I don't think you are an ASA member.
>>>> If you were (say) a member for a few years (or more), you would
>>>> realize that the ASA has for decades been about a much broader range
>>>> of issues related to science and religion than you seem to be aware
>>>> of. Also, a broader range of disciplines and perspectives than is
>>>> often reflected on this list. You ought to consider becoming a
>>>> member, Gregory. A lot of good things have been published in our
>>>> journal and discussed at our meetings.
>>>>
>>>> Ted
>>>>
>>>>>>> <gmurphy10@neo.rr.com> 10/19/2009 10:29 AM >>>
>>>> Bob Russell pointed out some years ago that the area usuaully
>>>> referred to as "science and religion" is more accurately
>>>> "science-religion-technology-ethics," a point I've tried to bear in
>>>> mind. & one weakness of the position of many atheists is that they
>>>> have no clear basis for their ethics. Of course that doesn't mean
>>>> that they can't be nice people but their worldview provides no reason
>>>> why they should be nice.
>>>>
>>>> Shalom,
>>>> George
>>>>
>>>> ---- Gregory Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Dave,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the link!
>>>>>
>>>>> I liked these lines:
>>>>>
>>>>> "while we talk about the clash between God and science, in practice
>>>>> it often comes down to disagreements about man and morals. The
>>>>> boundaries are not always neat." - William McGurn
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it is time that the 'narrow' (as Ted Davis has just said to
>>>>> me) discussion of 'science and religion' opened itself up a bit to
>>>>> involve areas of importance that it has not yet sufficiently
>>>>> considered?
>>>>>
>>>>> - G.A.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Dave Wallace <wmdavid.wallace@gmail.com>
>>>>> To: ASA <asa@calvin.edu>
>>>>> Cc: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
>>>>> Sent: Mon, October 19, 2009 4:04:07 PM
>>>>> Subject: [asa] Francis Collins shows mild signs of dementia, NA snark
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> God vs. Science Isn't the Issue
>>>>>
>>>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704429304574467320574576460.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave W
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________________________________________
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>>>>>
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Received on Mon Oct 19 19:48:26 2009

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