Re: [asa] Ken Miller's mantra

From: David Clounch <>
Date: Thu Oct 15 2009 - 13:19:32 EDT

So, the materialists and atheists have pseudo-genes? Is that what you are
all saying?

Bernie has been arguing against TE all along. He is convinced that theism
is dead wrong. Fine.
But given that this is the case, how does anyone construct a scenario where
a pro-TE solution argues for TE but against materialism? If you cannot do
that then what has happened is the TE's have climbed in bed with the
materialists. I would think that is very undesirable from any TE's
viewpoint. Even the appearance would seem undesirable.

It seems there are different types of evolutionism, if I may use the word
"ism" gently. The real question is whether there is a scientific theory of
evolution that isn't evolutionism but does support TE rather than denying
theism. (Call this scenario #1).
If that is not the case then TE could be one of two other things:

2. evolutionism (and scientism)
3. pure religion

My belief is #1 is the most valid possibility.

Bernie has stated a number of times that his main reason for being an
atheist is he found pseudogenes.
I think this conflates two things that shouldn't be associated.

Bernie has stated that natural selection acting on mutations is not the
mechanism of evolution. I think he needs to back that up with pointers to
the literature where the same claim is made.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Jim Armstrong <> wrote:

> OK, - but you willing to travel with the catchphrase?
> My point was that they already know the words offered. They don't know
> pseudogenes unless accompanied by an explanation.
> By the way, my email spellchecker did not recognize the word.
> JimA [Friend of ASA]
> John Walley wrote:
> Actually I beg to differ. I explained pseudogenes to my 12 and 13 year old son and daughter and they understood right away. I got the standard response of &quot;maybe they do something we don&#39;t understand yet&quot; but once I elaborated on that they at least understood what it meant and admitted it was convincing. I have since overheard my daughter using it in her discussions with ther friends.
> Using the &quot;typo&quot; analogy which I did, I don&#39;t think it is that hard at all for fresh young minds to grasp the concept and it obvious implications. The resistance comes over time as their science faith worldview develops and the wedge is driven in that all science is suspect and it is deception propagated by atheists.
> John
> Jim Armstrong wrote:
> Bernie - I have to agree more with Keith on this one. Other than folks
> who are already tuned into this argument, how many folks do you think
> would have a string that would resonate to "pseudogenes"? Most would
> wonder, either verbally or silently, "What was that word again?"
> Fossils they know; sue-do-whatever is another matter.
> This is much the same problem as one I've spoken to in the past, namely
> that scientific arguments don't do as much good as reasonably sound
> plausibility arguments, using familiar language. The tradition and
> consensus based distrust factor clouds any other less familiar basis
> for explanation or argument.
> JimA [Friend of ASA]
> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
> In watching
> some Kenneth Miller videos
> awhile back, he was sharing the mantra “We have the fossils; we win.”
> I don’t
> think it is a good evolutionist
> mantra, because a YEC can say “We have the same fossils; we just
> interpret them
> differently.”
> My
> suggestion for evolutionists is to say “We
> have pseudogenes; we win.” The Young Earther’s don’t have a valid
> response for
> explaining pseudogenes, and there are thousands of them in the human
> genome
> (not to mention in all the other animal genomes too).
> …Bernie
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Received on Thu Oct 15 13:19:54 2009

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