Re: [asa] Revisiting sin and corruption

From: John Burgeson (ASA member) <>
Date: Tue Oct 06 2009 - 10:45:34 EDT

You have to believe in free will. You have no choice!

On 10/4/09, Jim Armstrong <> wrote:
> Hello again, Murray et al...
> At the risk of doing a disservice to Bernie's quest and way, there has
> passed this way the language of free-will as contrasted with enslaved
> will, along with a fleeting question as to a definition of sin. Those
> seem to be pretty interwoven.
> I struggle with this free-will vs enslaved will characterization and
> wonder - a la Bernie - if one would venture a crisp definition of sin
> and how that works out in fair specifics as enslavement vs free-will. I
> expect that "enslavement" is probably hyperbole, but I also think it is
> ...well ...damaging. Isn't there some validity to the idea of thinking
> our way into an attitude of enslavement, rather than freedom? And isn't
> that freedom more the theme of Jesus' teaching? That would seem to
> affirm the free-will characterization.
> I am well acquainted with the comfortable free-flowing nature of
> references to the corrupt nature of man in mainstream life, but I
> (obviously) question that characterization. I just don't see a devotion
> in most people to making an endless concatenated string of suboptimal -
> sinful - decisions. Rather I see those potentially relationship-damaging
> choices as episodic and relatively rare along a timeline of real life
> and living (again, for most folks). The corruption notion seems
> unnecessary, and however subtle or civilized, even perhaps akin to
> uncomplimentary-to-the-Creator self-flagellation. Again, I pose the
> question as to what other part of Creation we would dare to characterize
> as "corrupt". Who in the light of God's demonstrated creative capacity
> is presumed to have sufficient power to do that to His Creation and its
> elements? Me?
> In some ways, it seems to me that the idea that we are intrinsically
> enslaved serves only to deflect, to some extent, attention away from our
> own immaturity, and perhaps accountability, with respect to
> moment-by-moment choosing (isn't that what we do?) the "non-sin " path
> (assuming I have a decent working definition of what that might be in
> the workings of daily life). [I do recognize the distinction between sin
> and sins].
> So I guess in short, my question is: what might be those
> actions/activities (in Bernie specifics) that dominate a typical daily
> timeline of life to such an extent as to validate total corruption of
> the "liver"? To "love God" might not be specific enough here.
> In fair disclosure, perhaps, I am biased by both the content and the
> order of Micah 6:8 and its counterparts in other portions of scripture,
> newer and older.
> Again, if this seems to be leaning toward off-theme for this list, where
> else would you suggest one would go in search of such thoughtful,
> articulate and temperate conversation with folks having an active left
> brain?
> This is such a large and cool living room!!
> JimA
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Received on Tue Oct 6 10:46:41 2009

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