Re: [asa] consciousness, ASA article feedback (was: RE: (fall-away) TE and apologetics)

From: Jack <>
Date: Fri Sep 25 2009 - 17:01:57 EDT

The premise that is accepted and not proven is that universalism, and
annihilationism are falsehoods.

There is also the premise that God would not recreate just for the purpose
of eternal torture, which is also not proven but a strong personal opinion.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Powers" <>
To: "Jack" <>
Cc: "Dehler, Bernie" <>; "asa" <>;
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [asa] consciousness, ASA article feedback (was: RE: (fall-away)
TE and apologetics)

> Jack:
> I have a problem with your problem with a god that would "re-create"
> people just for the purpose of eternal torture.
> At issue is what is regarded as more fundamental. In wave/particle
> dilemma of atomic entities what is more fundamental? One could take the
> empirical results as more fundamental or perhaps the coherence of our
> story. Do we simply jump unto the complementarity wagon or do we insist
> that there is a "rational" resolution?
> So too for the existence of the soul and our theodicy.
> As I understand your argument, it is a form of reductio ab absurdum (I had
> to look it up to get the spelling correct):
> If there is no soul/body dualism (eternal soul substance), then
> God must re-create those who receive eternal life.
> If there is a hell, then God re-creates those for eternal torture.
> God would not re-create people for eternal torture.
> Hence, there can be no hell.
> If God does not re-create those for hell, then unbelievers are
> annihilated.
> If there is no hell and only heaven, then everyone is saved.
> Hence, if there is no body/soul dualism, either unbelievers are
> annihilated or there is universal salvation.
> However, there is a hell and universalism is false, hence there must be a
> body/soul dualism.
> I agree with the logic. Indeed, I probably agree with your conclusion.
> The problem I have is with the premises. I have no idea what an
> "afterlife" would be like, which suggests that I really don't understand
> what a "beforelife" is about. I don't really understand why something is
> Real and others not, or what sustains a thing, or even what makes
> something alive. I keep livestock and it always amazes me how quickly and
> mysteriously life ebbs away. Given this profound ignorance, it is
> difficult, if not impossible, for me to know what the possibilities are.
> I simply take, as you, the data as more fundamental than my understanding
> or coherence of thought. That there is a Hell and there is a Heaven I
> take as fundamental. How that works out is beyond my ken. It's a little
> like talking about mulitverses, only significantly more difficult. It
> seems to get at the nature of substance and reality, something not even a
> multiverse addresses. For it is the Uni-verse behind the multi-verse.
> bill
> On Tue, 22 Sep 2009, Jack wrote:
>> "I think the main point of the argument was that neuroscience experts and
>> many modern theologians now see the soul as emergence, as in a form of
>> monism. "
>> Obviously there has to be more to your concern than just this article,
>> but what makes you think that the author of this article is correct?
>> Personally, I agree with your position that without an eternal soul,
>> Christianity is meaningless. Monism, defined as a Christian philosophy
>> where there is no mind/body dualism that nevertheless allows eternal
>> salvation, leads to two possible outcomes, annihilationism, or
>> universalism. Either all unbelievers cease to exist after death and God
>> "recreates" and resurrects believers, or everyone is recreated and saved.
>> (I have a theodicy problem with God creating a body/mind just for the
>> purpose of eternal torture.) So, monism is not consistent with
>> Christianity.
>> But there is nothing in modern science or philosophy, in my opinion that
>> convinces me that the traditional concept of an eternal soul is
>> incorrect. You have to keep in mind that we see, hear, understand, and
>> reason within our brain, so our seeing hearing and understanding are
>> limited to those functions that our brain can sustain. Which is not to
>> say that there are not experiences beyond our understanding, i.e. beyond
>> our brains ability to process it.
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Received on Fri Sep 25 17:01:41 2009

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