RE: [asa] Meyer on C-SPAN2

From: Dehler, Bernie <>
Date: Thu Sep 10 2009 - 14:43:39 EDT

Ryan said:
"Who are we to say that energy or matter are not eternal - that God 'made' them?"

I think mainstream evangelical theology would say that the spiritual world eternally existed, and God created the physical world- things you can measure with instruments- such as energy and matter. Therefore, energy is not eternal, just like matter isn't. It was all (energy/matter) created at some point... although, not in a 'point in time' because time didn't exist until the big-bang.

Time is an "emergent property" of the big-bang (I think I just came up with that idea!?).

I really like this idea of 'emergence' and how it applies to so many things (the soul, etc.). I enjoyed the discussion of emergence on the "Test of Faith" DVD.


-----Original Message-----
From: [] On Behalf Of Ryan Rasmussen, P.E.
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 11:26 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] Meyer on C-SPAN2

Bernie said:

"Think about this. Suppose God really made the big bang. Energy and matter are not eternal, God made them, right? So God made the first energy for the big bang out of nothing? Is that comprehensible? And if God is self-existing and eternal, does that mean the place he lives is self-existing and eternal too? Or did he have to build heaven sometime after He himself was made... wait- he was self-existing... Thinking about this makes me more open to multiverse ideas. There is still so much we don't know or comprehend, like 'time' before 'time' existed from the big bang."

Who are we to say that energy or matter are not eternal - that God 'made' them?

Philippians 2:6-8 (New International Version)

 6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
 7 but made himself nothing,
      taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
      being made in human likeness.
 8 And being found in appearance as a man,
      he humbled himself
      and became obedient to death-
         even death on a cross!

While we are daydreaming about things... How about this?

What exactly does it take for a Divine Being of immense power to pour itself out never to return to it's former state of being? What would that look like, say... a singularity? Was that the Original sacrifice?

Constructing the universe in all its grandeur out of the power and essence that It once was. That power and essence still fully under Its dominion to the smallest of degrees. Fine-tuning on a cosmic scale of all the manners in which it is to behave over the subsequent billions of years.

In fullness of time, crafting the genetic code in a virgin womb that will produce the new form for Its new existence for all eternity. Taking an intimate part in sharing our existence, experiencing what it is to be 'human'. Submitting to torture and death when every part of him ached and pleaded for some other way to be made.

However this might mesh with what we know of quantum theory, actual divine history, or anything else for that matter, eludes me. But, I do know one thing. When I meditate on the sacrifice it took for that Divine Being to forsake what it once was, all for a creation such as us, I find it so extremely appalling.

I just thank God that He saw otherwise and declared it ...'Good'.

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Received on Thu Sep 10 14:44:13 2009

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