Re: [asa] Re: good atheists?

From: David Clounch <>
Date: Wed Sep 09 2009 - 13:51:06 EDT


You've done a good job of pointing out what CS Lewis did, that there is (for
lack of a better term today" a "morality in the wild", possessed by
everyone whether religious or not. It is the natural state of the
unregenerate man.
It doesn't go away when people become born again.

My hypothesis is this morality infests Christians. So, as a result, we get
rule-based-religion withing Christianity. We get away from the principle
that Christianity is a love based response to God's undeserved grace to us.
We start building religious rules.

And this is the cause of the problems in churches that Susan is upset
But is actually the (defective) morality everyone is born with, not
Christianity, that is the problem. Sadly we have various rules based
para-Christian cultures that grew up around Christianity.

Put another way - The fuel atheists are running on - well Christian are
running on the same fuel. The difference is Christians have an opportunity
to access a different fuel. If they want to. Its not easy.

So, I find Susan's analysis to be too simple.

Back to Lewis. Lewis was worried about the issue of "where does this
morality in the wild" moral imperative come from? Because, as he pointed
out, it doesnt come from people. Saying it comes from people is like
saying music comes from the keys on a piano rather than from the piano

But just because it comes from somewhere else doesn't mean it isn't tainted
and flawed, having been damaged by the fall.

Dave C

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 9:04 PM, Murray Hogg <> wrote:

> Cogan, Susan L. wrote:
>> So I agree with the trivially obvious claim that atheists DO have a moral
>>> sense, what I DON'T see is any way of grounding that moral sense in any
>>> way
>>> which would compel me to take it seriously.
>> That's because you have a lifetime habit of accepting morality from an
>> outside source. You don't trust your own morality or your ability to judge
>> good from bad. You don't trust yourself to do good without fear of
>> punishment or hope of reward. You don't understand that morality is a
>> basic
>> requirement to a happy life and you don't need to be forced to do it.
> I am rendered speechless...
> Blessings,
> Murray
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Received on Wed Sep 9 13:51:46 2009

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