Re: [asa] Re: (religious memes?)

From: David Clounch <>
Date: Wed Sep 02 2009 - 18:12:47 EDT

The concept of a Messianic sacrifice came from the time of Adam, not from
the time of Noah. Non-Hebrew primitive cultures may or may not have
learned of this. Or, upon hearing the rumors, they may have independently
developed parallel concepts. So what?

The idea that Hebrews were claiming throughout history to be the only ones
who knew about this is AFAIK unsubstantiated. It wasn't kept secret. It was
broadcast. And what if they did claim to be the only ones who knew but were
wrong and other cultures knew about it? That doesn't mean, as Bernie seems
to be claiming, that the original event (and prophecy) did not take
place. I don't think Bernie has established that Judeo-Christian history
and theology is fabricated. Many people out there engage in the fantasy
that Christianity was fabricated. So what?

Unless of course someone is feeding a culture war against Christianity with
this nonsense - then it becomes a serious matter. That is what is going on
in Minnesota, BTW. We have citizens for science groups asking school boards
to protect "materialism" from "Christianity", (as if that is some sort of
legitimate activity of government). The truth is it violates the First
Amendment rule about excessive entanglement (IMHA). The proposed solution
in that case was the exclusion of ideas they alleged support Christianity,
leaving the ideas supporting materialism intact. Are the citizens for
science groups atheists? I don't know. PZ Meyers is involved as far as I
know. But that doesn't mean most members are atheists. Most members
probably do, however, take Bernie's view that Christianity is a
fabrication. And then they lobby government. This isn't an innocent
exercise in armchair philosophy.

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Merv <> wrote:

> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>> Dr. Campbell said:
>> "One might legitimately describe the progressive nature of revelation as
>> evolutionary in some fashion, though I would agree with Gregory that this is
>> somewhat stretching the definition of evolution."
>> Gregory probably also objects to cosmological evolution because it isn't
>> like biological evolution. Evolution is different in society, stars, and
>> biology in details; the same component of evolution is in all, that more
>> complex things are built-up from simpler things (not de novo creations of
>> complex things).
>> Dr. Campbell said:
>> "The atheism meme seems to overlap with a lot of human sacrifice, too,
>> though in the form of guillotines, genocide, gulags, etc. rather than
>> on a physical altar."
>> I think it is a shame to blame genocide on atheism just as it is to blame
>> the Crusades on Christianity. Both atheism and Christianity have been used
>> to instigate evil, but they have also both been used to instigate good.
> What is an example where atheism has been used for "good"? (and saying
> that it is useful to combat "false & highly culpable Christianity" would be
> begging the question over which one is true in the first place.) I'm not
> asking this rhetorically just to poke at you (well, okay, maybe I am just a
> little bit...) but I really am curious how this could be answered. And
> we'll jump past the whole problem of how an atheist could define "good" in
> the first place. I'm willing to grant, for here and now, that atheists can
> recognize and aspire towards "good" like most others regardless of religious
> or irreligious platform. Again: where is the example of "St. Bertrand's
> health clinic for inner city youth" or the "Murray O'Hair hospice for
> indigents"? PLEASE NOTE: I'm not disputing that atheists have done good
> things being highly philanthropic in their own ways. I'm sure many have
> --including Dawkins too. But where is the example of an organization
> motivated *by* and *because of* its atheism to strive for venerable and
> selfless goals? (very anti-Nietzschean that would be). There probably are
> some; I haven't been looking. Your last statement above shows some
> confidence that you know of such things.
> --Merv
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Received on Wed Sep 2 18:13:52 2009

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