Re: [asa] (ancient theodicy, 'ancient theology') Deism, Apologetics, and Neglected Arguments

From: David Clounch <>
Date: Wed Aug 26 2009 - 11:08:13 EDT

Fork #2

2) On the materialist position itself: Bernie has been challenging
traditional Christian views on the problem of pain, implying they are
inadequate and this will cause believers to reject their faith. And I
perceive what Bernie to be asserting is that from the view of a casual
observer it sure looks like random purposeless death is what is going on
rather than a grand overall purposeful plan. But...lets assume materialism
is correct. If one asks the same questions of materialism that Bernie asked
of Christianity, what do we get?
 What conclusion can anyone reach other than:

"pain and suffering then is purposeless because individual human lives and
even the entire human race is purposeless."

Imagine if materialism became the dominant world view: if a tsunami kills
a billion people, why should anyone send aid? Its just another spontaneous
reaction. Like rust. Questions of purpose are irrelevant. Materialists
just really wouldn't care (if they are following their beliefs to their
logical conclusion). Contrast this with the Christian view of humans that
each human is made in the image of God and is something God cares deeply
That is the reason to help alleviate people's suffering. They have ultimate

I think almost everybody on earth thinks human have worth and more meaning
that rocks on the beach.

A materialist could always say "well I care. I'll send aid. Its an
existential thing." But he would be abandoning the logical conclusion of
his own world view when he says that.

So it seems to me the best way to kill evolution is to associate evolution
with materialism.
Is this really what Bernie is trying to do?

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Dave Wallace <>wrote:

> Murray Hogg wrote:
>> But as for the alternate responses, I personally think it's a very hard
>> question: why WOULD God choose to create through evolution when the process
>> is intrinsically competitive and contrary to the command to love one's
>> neighbour?
> Sometimes I wonder if, given all the constraints, God's creating through
> evolution was the only way he could get the kind of people he ultimately
> wanted. The kind of constraints I am thinking of are things like moral
> imperatives. As I see it God does not want determinism to rule the people
> he looks for although our freedom is quite limited.
>> Again, "I don't know" is, to me, an appropriate response and one I can
>> live with.
> I think we often have to live with I don't know. Too often we attempt to
> go beyond our limitations, not only in science but it theology, some things
> are simply mysteries. I do think that mankind's breaking of the law has
> made the situation worse, much worse and that the results of such sin go
> down through the generations.
> Dave W
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Received on Wed Aug 26 11:09:05 2009

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