Re: [asa] Deism, Apologetics, and Neglected Arguments

From: Schwarzwald <>
Date: Wed Aug 19 2009 - 17:16:47 EDT

Heya all,

Cameron's doing a good job of presenting how I see this issue being
approached, and with whom - I've seen him make a similar argument before, or
at least talk about how this kind of group (I think it's a bit broader than
what he outlines, but that's a small point) exists and needs a different
approach than is currently being offered. So in the interest of moving the
conversation along, I'll throw out some additional points/views from my end
of things.

* I keep mentioning how I don't see this approach as limited to ID, and I
mean it. To point out an example I keep using, Aquinas' Five Ways are not an
ID argument - not even his fifth way is an ID argument. I think there is a
place, a sizable place, for philosophical arguments in this sort of
apologetic/effort. I think there is a place for reworkings of Pascal's wager
and similar arguments. I think there is a place for TE efforts (more on that
below). And I do think there is a place for ID efforts, though I have some
criticisms there (again, more on that below.)

* I agree with Cameron. Every time I've seen the TE message presented, it
has been almost exactly the way he's describing here - what I'd argue is an
almost purely defensive presentation. "God can be compatible with...", etc.
And it's been aimed squarely at people who are already Christians. Even
Biologos, which I have mixed feelings on the positive side about, takes this
approach. But while I agree it's important to point out that evolution does
nothing to disprove the existence of God (Even Daniel Dennett will, when
pressed, concede this) or the limitations of the scientific enterprise (I
think Cameron may disagree with me to a degree here, but I think Stephen
Barr was dead-on accurate when he talked about what "random" can and must
mean in a purely scientific environment) what also should be explored is
why and how God may have chosen evolution to create with and through. What I
think TEs need to do is present this message to the crowd Cameron and I are
both talking about - and I think some have taken an approach similar to
this. Michael Denton comes to mind, as well as Simon Conway Morris (in fact,
he's been feisty about the subject to say the least) and others. The
opportunity is ripe for more, much more, than this. Go beyond the New
Atheists and the YECs - there are other people who need your message and
your help. But you need to talk to them. And I honestly believe the most
effective way to do this is to pull back and start with basic theism. And I
should note, I don't think billing such discussions as "science" is
necessary or prudent, either in the ID or TE approach.

* I also agree with some of Cameron's praise of ID. What attracted me to ID
was how they were willing to make arguments on this subject A) Divorced from
explicit Christian apologetics, B) In a big-tent way (even if that 'big
tent' has a habit of criticizing "evolution" or confusing it with
"Darwinism"), and C) Get Christians interested in deeper scientific
questions while encouraging an approach that had them looking at such at
least through the lens of design. That said, I also think the general ID
project and mentality should continue to expand - and expand beyond the DI
as well. I'm on a DI mailing list, and while John West and others may point
out that ID's bone of contention is with Darwinism rather than evolution,
"evolution" seems to end up being at least in name criticized over and over.
I think even Cameron would have to agree that that's not only not a
necessary tact for ID to take, it isn't the most promising one.

On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 2:01 AM, Cameron Wybrow <>wrote:

> George, Schwarzwald, et al.:
> I tend to agree with Schwarzwald. There is no "risk-free" approach. There
> is no evangelical "technique" which can guarantee that anyone will believe
> in the "right" kind of Christian God (whether that God be the kenotic,
> suffering Christ of George Murphy, or the
> sovereign, irresistible, inscrutable, predestining Will believed in by many
> Calvinists).
> Yes, it's possible that certain ideas of God that a person might adopt
> (perhaps, say, a God who is identified exclusively with will, power and
> victory) may make it difficult later on for that person to accept many forms
> of Christianity (in which God is thought of in terms of submission,
> weakness, and humiliation). On the other hand, unless the Christian God of
> kenosis and humility is *entirely* different from the Creator-God of power,
> will, intelligence, etc., there will be *some* overlap between the God
> inferred from nature and the suffering God. I don't think that even George
> Murphy, with his emphasis on the self-emptying aspect of God, would say that
> *all* language in the Bible and tradition which speaks of God and creation
> in terms of power, wisdom, etc., is false and inappropriate. I do not think
> he could say this, and remain, as I believe he intends to remain, within the
> tradition of historic Christianity, with its emphasis on the Bible, the
> Fathers, the Creeds, the Trinity, etc. Thus, I think there exists a "bridge
> theology" between those who are Deists, Jews, and Christians, a sort of
> minimalist theology acknowledging the existence of an intelligent power
> which has given rational form to the world. I cannot see what harm such a
> minimalist theology can do, as long as no one supposes that it is a full or
> adequate theology.
> It is true that not "just any kind of theist" can easily move
> to Christianity. But the theists who cannot easily move to Christianity --
> George gives Muslims as an example -- are theists who are "dedicated", so to
> speak, to *a particular form* of theism. Schwarzwald is talking about
> "non-dedicated" theism. An example that springs to mind: if you have a
> motor which is connected with the blade of an electric lawn-mower, you
> cannot easily use the whole assembly as a living-room fan. Nor, if you have
> a motor which is connected with the blade of a living-room fan, can you
> easily turn the whole assembly into an electric lawn-mower. But if you have
> a motor powerful enough for either job, which has not yet been integrated
> into the structure of either a lawn-mower or a living room fan, you can put
> it to either use, by building it into the appropriate mechanical setting.
> Schwarzwald's theists-in-general are like such a "non-dedicated" motor.
> George's Muslims, on the other hand, are like the motor which is already
> encased in the electric lawn-mower and therefore badly suited to use as a
> living-room fan. However, Schwarzwald is not recommending dragging an
> electric lawn-mower into the house, setting it up on its side, and using it
> as a clumsy fan. He is recommending that atheists consider the possibility
> that there might be such a thing as a motor. Once they are convinced that
> motors exist, they may also come to believe that living-room fans exist.
> Further, even if, once believing in motors, a person should fall in love
> with electric lawn-mowers rather than living-room fans, what is the loss?
> Prior to that, the person did not believe in living-room fans, anyway.
> Similarly, if a person should move from atheism to generic theism and
> finally to Islam, well, that person was not a Christian before anyway, so
> there is no net loss to Christendom. And since at least a *some* people who
> move from atheism to generic theism will later become Christian, then on the
> whole, the move from atheism to generic theism cannot be anything but a gain
> for Christendom.
> The social relevance of Schwarzwald's suggestion is this: as of right
> now, there is a whole sector of the population -- bright, well-educated,
> upper-middle-class, with above average wealth and confidence and social
> position -- which is effectively atheist or agnostic, whether it still
> retains a nominal church connection or not. This sector of the population
> believes that "science" has disproved the existence of a creator God, or
> that "science" has made such a God a redundant and/or dubious hypothesis.
> If this sector of the population could be shown that "science" has shown no
> such thing, and even further, that "science", to the extent that it shows
> anything about God, makes the existence of a creator God at least as likely
> as not, and possibly even more likely than not, then one of the huge
> intellectual and cultural barriers to even considering the possibility of
> Christianity will have been removed. Design arguments, to the extent that
> they seriously weaken the "science has shown that there is no God" position,
> are constructive in this regard. (This is not to say that design arguments
> can "prove" the existence of God; but even rendering dubious the alleged
> scientific disproofs of God's existence is a very useful service to
> religious belief.)
> I've probably said this before, and I hope I won't bore people if I say it
> again: on this front, ID is more useful than TE. The TE message is for
> those who are *already Christian*, but who do not accept certain results of
> modern science. The TE message, at least as it usually appears on this
> list, and even in many of the essays in the *PEC* book, is: "Conservative,
> Bible-believing Protestants, don't be afraid of science, and in particular,
> don't be afraid of evolution. You can still keep your Christianity if you
> subscribe to evolution, an ancient earth, etc." But such a message has no
> relevance for those who aren't Christian, and aren't particularly interested
> in becoming Christian. They already accept evolution and an ancient earth
> and the Big Bang anyway. The ID message, on the other hand, is: "Atheists
> and agnostics and former believers (who, being Harvard and Cornell grads, or
> readers of books and blogs written by those grads, have lost your faith),
> don't believe Sagan and Dawkins and Gould and Coyne when they say that
> undirected natural processes have already accounted for the rationality of
> the cosmos and of the integrated complexity of living things. There is a
> strong inferential case, based entirely on empirical data and
> reason, that an intelligent design of some sort pervades the non-living and
> living worlds." The ID message resonates better with the sort of people I
> am talking about, because (a) it is based on the empirical and mathematical
> study of nature, which is appealing to such middle-class, science-respecting
> people; and (b) it is religiously non-threatening, because it does not push
> the Bible in such people's faces. TE literature, on the other hand,
> is pious-sounding, with many references to Christ, the Bible, faith, the
> theistic world-view, God's sovereignty, theodicy, etc., and this scares many
> middle-class agnostics away. Thus, I think the ID approach, which leads
> only indirectly to revealed religion, via a generic "natural theology"
> accessible even to a thoughtful and open-minded agnostic, is much more
> likely (albeit only in a roundabout manner, and in the long run) to win
> converts to Christianity than TE is, from that part of the public which I
> have specified. I don't see why TE proponents should begrudge this "mission
> field" to ID, since it is not a field in which TE is doing much cultivating,
> anyway.
> Cameron.
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Schwarzwald <>
> *To:*
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 18, 2009 10:28 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Deism, Apologetics, and Neglected Arguments
> Heya George,
> I've already said that, certainly, bringing someone to theism does not
> guarantee that they're going to become Christian. But I don't think there's
> a "risk-free" approach to this - absolutely any move you make (including
> making no move at all) has a risk attached. One has to keep in mind their
> message and their approach, but at the end of the day do what seems to make
> the most sense. And I maintain that the approach I'm talking about makes
> quite a lot of sense, specifically in the west. I wouldn't say it's the only
> approach available, or that it doesn't have risks, of course. But I'd need
> to hear more than "They may end up believing differently than we/you do" to
> reject it, because that's the status quo for this group as is.
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 9:38 PM, George Murphy <>wrote:
>> It's not at all clear to me that a person becoming just any kind of
>> theist is better - i.e., closer to Christian faith - than atheism. From a
>> theoretical standpoint, Christianity is very different from many varieties
>> of theism. It's not without significance that the early Christians were
>> accused of being atheists by the pagans. If you ask many of the people who
>> "believe in God" what God they believe in, you may have to say "I don't
>> believe in that God either." & practically, being a member of many theistic
>> communities (e.g., Islam) introduces constraints against acceptance of
>> Christianity that are not felt by atheists. & even the "mere theist" may
>> have settled upon notions about God that that make it difficult to take
>> seriously the belief that the real God is revealed in a man dying on cross.
>> Shalom
>> George
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Schwarzwald <>
>> *To:*
>> *Sent:* Monday, August 17, 2009 9:18 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Deism, Apologetics, and Neglected Arguments
>> ...........................................
>> George Murphy: I really do believe that you are correct when you talk
>> about there being a danger in making use of mere theistic arguments.
>> However, I'd simply point out that there's danger in just about every
>> apologetic approach - get an atheist to accept the existence of a grand
>> designer or creator and for all you know you've just turned him into a hindu
>> (I'd point out that with CS Lewis, this was apparently a very live
>> possibility early on) or something else. At the same time, I'd consider an
>> atheist becoming a hindu, a panentheist, an idealist, a pagan, or a "mere
>> theist" to be progress. In other words, if we're thinking purely
>> pragmatically here, I'm tempted to take a Pascal-like view - whatever danger
>> there may be in using arguments for mere theism in discussion with agnostics
>> or practical atheists, it's outweighed by the danger/detriment of the status
>> quo being maintained with them. I'll put this again bluntly: I'd much rather
>> deal with a mere theist of just about any stripe rather than the
>> alternative, because at least the mere theist can be expected to take the
>> question of God seriously.
>> ...........................................

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Received on Wed Aug 19 17:17:38 2009

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