Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth

From: dfsiemensjr <>
Date: Mon Aug 10 2009 - 15:52:14 EDT

Many years ago I worked at Moody Institute of Science. Dr. Moon, the
director, noted that, if you ask a scientist a question in his field, he
will often say, "I do not know." However, asking a preacher any question
on any topic will get you a definitive answer. Perhaps the inspiration
and inerrancy of the biblical authors is transmitted to those who preach
the Word.
Dave (ASA)

On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 09:10:34 -0400 "Alexanian, Moorad"
<> writes:
> John,
> Thanks for you comments. Jesus would never excuse ignorance. I
> believe his emphasis must have been more on avoidance of pride or
> haughtiness. That is the way I understand Matt. 18:3. I also often
> quote “being wise as serpents and innocent as doves” to my children.
> Of course, my favorite verse, which is in my facebook, is
> “Professing to be wise, they became fools.” Rom. 1:22. This is
> certainly addressed to the prideful.
> I do not see why a pastor cannot use the words “I do not know” when
> referring to scientific knowledge, especially in areas that there
> may be so much contention even amongst scientists. There is so
> little we can prove, Gödel taught us that, that I personally work
> the ends. I know science, I am a practicing physicist, and I know
> Scripture. How the two jibe together in the middle is the tough part
> and, at times, I think unfathomable to the human brain.
> I must say that I am not a regular churchgoer and when in church
> never heard any pastors speak about scientific matters. I suppose
> that if I heard what I consider scientific nonsense, that is,
> showing ignorance of basic scientific facts, then I would be
> disturbed and would go and speak to the pastor afterwards. As a
> Christian, I am not neither pastor- nor church- dependent. “For
> there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man
> Christ Jesus.” 1 Tim. 2:5.
> Moorad
> ________________________________________
> From: John Walley []
> Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 4:32 AM
> To: Alexanian, Moorad
> Cc: AmericanScientificAffiliation
> Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth
> I would say those words have no bearing on the subject of this
> discussion. I don't think Jesus' admonition for us to be childlike
> implies excusing ignorance. Jesus offered us lots of words. He also
> said to be as wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Further He
> said that the children of darkness are shrewder than the children of
> light. What sense do you make of those words of Jesus?
> As to the other side discussion, obviously God calls and uses
> whoever He can and does His best with what He has to work with. The
> example of the guy baptizing in the name of John makes this clear.
> However that is no excuse for us to be wise and shrewd as above and
> to value teaching and instruction.
> I disagree that the primary responsibilities of being a pastor such
> as sheparding souls and handling the sacrements are in conflict with
> an informed worldview. In fact handling the Truth and understanding
> how God's revelation integrates with Truth is just as much a
> responsibility, even moreso now that that forms the battle lines of
> out current spiritual warfare.
> Excepting the practical issues of getting the pastors trained the
> point is that they should be and they should be seeking this
> themselves even if they weren't. I do not expect pastors to be
> scientists but they do not have to be. I only have a liberal arts
> degree but I sensed the importance of this issue and sought it out
> and studied it until I figured it out and I expect the same from
> them, especially on such a pivotal foundational issue.
> John
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <>
> To: John Walley <>; Schwarzwald
> <>; "" <>
> Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2009 10:17:01 PM
> Subject: RE: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth
> John,
> I wonder what sense do you make of Jesus’ words, "Truly I say to
> you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not
> enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt. 18:3.
> Moorad
> ________________________________
> From: [] On
> Behalf Of John Walley []
> Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 7:40 PM
> To: Schwarzwald;
> Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth
> First of all I would say that all pastors should be required to be
> educated about science. They should all be conversant and fluent
> about all the science faith issues that comprise the modern day
> ideological battlefield including age of the earth and evolution.
> They should be familiar with all the facts of science on both of
> these issues including dating methods and pseudogenes and have read
> all the popular authors on the subject like Ross, Collins, Miler,
> Falk, McGrath etc. I think all pastors should be as educated on
> these issues as the average member of this list who is just an avid
> truth seeker and not a professional minister excepting George and
> Michael and maybe a couple of others. We have come to accept
> stupidity and excuses from our church leadership and we are just ok
> with that. Well I for one am not. If I was in charge of a
> denomination they would all be fired. This is one of the most
> foundational issues of the faith and not only is it the
> modern spiritual weapon t!
> hat the enemy is using to marginalize and criminalize Christianity,
> it also gets to the core issue of objective reality and how we know
> anything. Without a desire to have this understanding, to me
> Christianity is certainly impotent and almost meaningless. It is
> hard for me to accept the spiritual authority of any pastor who
> doesn't show at least an interest or a desire to press through to
> understand these issues. I can accept disagreement from those that
> are on the journey and trying to understand but not from those who
> just write it off and dismiss it out of hand, which are most from my
> experience.
> There once was a day when church scholars were the thought leaders
> for all of society and education and intelligence and applied
> Christian theology were synonymous. That is how it should still be
> today as well. Collins and the above are bright spots that give me
> hope that it may be that way again but first we have to get all the
> fundamentalist ignorant Bible thumpers out of the way first. The
> prescription is not a formula for what they should be saying or
> doing but instead an honest, humble quest for Truth with the
> willingness to repent of religious pride and tradition, status and
> self identity, ego and all the other things that keep people locked
> in that spiritual jail. Once they encounter the true God that aligns
> with the record of nature and that they worship in spirit in truth
> instead of the idol they make for themselves from their over literal
> and over concordist finite understanding of the Bible, then they
> will know what to say and do and things
> will start changing.
> We have had the discussion before on this list that the Reformation
> did a lot of good for the church but one of the not so good things
> it did was to create an anything goes theological free-for-all.
> Every church's doctrine is as good as any other and you can find a
> denomination for whatever combination of subjective pet beliefs and
> doctrines you care to cherish. What is now missing from
> prostestantism is the concept of the Magisterium where there really
> is a right and wrong that is decided by competent and qualified
> experts with a rationale that serves all. I have a feeling that this
> is where God is trying to bring the protestant church back to but I
> shudder to think of what it might take to get the church from here
> to there.
> Thanks
> John
> ________________________________
> From: Schwarzwald <>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2009 2:25:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth
> If that's the case, John, then what do you think the course of
> action should be for pastors and church leaders when it comes to
> this question? What should they be saying, how should they be saying
> it, etc?
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 1:21 PM, John Walley
> <<>> wrote:
> The problem with this is that if we can't do any better than three
> mutually exclusive datasets in a world where their choice will make
> or break their career, then I agree with them in their decision to
> leave the church.
> If pastors and the church can't figure this out then I don't blame
> anyone for not having any respect for them and not trusting them.
> They are not only not relevant but actually counterproductive by
> obfuscating what should be a cut and dried issue.
> I count myself among these you are lamenting and I put the onus on
> the church to be the solution.
> Thanks
> John
> On Sat Aug 8th, 2009 10:39 PM EDT James Patterson wrote:
> >It seems to me that this baby/bathwater problem is even more
> serious right
> >now because of a seemingly growing inclination among many of the
> young to
> >instantly turn off the voice of (respect for) anyone who
> self-compromises
> >their message by uttering something that immediately registers as
> untrue, is
> >accompanied by an unwelcome (to the hearer) agenda, or fails to
> connect
> >however tenuously with the questions floating around in the
> hearer's
> >recently discovered and dynamically growing internal worldview.
> >
> >
> >
> >Jim, agreed.
> >
> >
> >
> >One thing my wife has mentioned several times, with which I agree,
> and that
> >gets back to the "are they really a Christian if they leave the
> Church"
> >issue. Many of these young adults go and taste the world, and find
> it
> >distasteful. It does not sit well with what is written on their
> hearts. They
> >gain perspective, insight, learn to see that man and the Church are
> not
> >perfect. Some also learn in time that, despite its problems, the
> Church is
> >(vastly) better in an imperfect form than no Church at all.
> >
> >
> >
> >I know that's what happened with me.
> >
> >
> >
> >Despite all our debate about how God did it, we agree that God
> created us.
> >We really should be able to figure out a way to provide to young
> people
> >convincing evidence that - despite the fact that we can't agree on
> HOW - he
> >DID create us. The problem is that they (the "average" college
> student) need
> >evidence.and we have (at least) three different datasets.
> >
> >
> >
> >James Patterson
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Received on Mon Aug 10 16:29:28 2009

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