RE: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth

From: James Patterson <>
Date: Mon Aug 10 2009 - 07:27:22 EDT

For once, I agree with John. However, the points Dave makes are clear,
valid, and difficult to surmount. Anyone can start a church, educated or
not. And going to seminary is certainly no guarantee of a truth-seeker.

The basic science needed to understand all that we do about the various
sides of science-faith not really all that basic, and
encompasses multiple different physics and natural sciences components. AND,
it would have to be taught in a sheltered seminary environment, because you
won't get it in a common school, public or private. Think about where the
average student gets off the science bus, so to speak, that's going into a
business or liberal arts major, and then look at where the seminary student
gets off that bus.

However, that being said, I was just looking at the wiki for seminaries and
then looked at Wheaton College. The wiki for Wheaton says "Some regard it as
the finest of the Evangelical colleges with respect to its reputation of
academic rigor." They have a course and major in Biology: It would be interesting to see how they
"base [their] approach to biology on the Biblical view of God as creator and
sustainer of the universe, introducing biology majors and other students to
the concepts of biology and helping them to discover and interpret the
characteristics of nature as part of God's creation." Does anyone know
whether they vigorously teach the different views on the age of the earth,

We have one in Pineville, LA called Louisiana College,, with a pre-med program in Biology. It's not
Wheaton, mind. But, I've actually talked to the department head here, and
they teach ABOUT all views, and (I think) focus more on getting the student
to think critically. This school is very strict about their entire staff
being Christians and Christ like in their work and off campus where they
will of course be examples to the students and community.

But even then. We can lead them to living water, and they can still drink
Time for work.
James P

-----Original Message-----
From: [] On
Behalf Of dfsiemensjr
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 10:19 PM
To: Gordon.Brown@Colorado.EDU
Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth

I agree with you but fear that you do not go far enough. For example, I
recently read about changes seminaries are making in their curricula. The
matter involved the requirement that the senior minister be trained in
management, for this is what churches are more and more needing. But
schedules are already full, so the plan was to reduce the requirement on
biblical languages. Where would the requirement for training in science

John also neglects the large number of pastors who do not have much
training, let along a seminary degree. I recall encountering a church
that built its baptisteries deep and narrow because Mark 1:10 KJV refers
to Jesus coming out of the water straightway. That level of ignorance is
unusual, but there is less understanding than is ideal. I \think of the
motto, "There is no cure for stupidity."

Finally, how would one vet the teachers? I got my introduction of YEC
from a prof who had a masters in biology. Later, the school passed over a
man who held an old earth view for one with lesser preparation who was
YEC. Not all schools, whatever their level, adopt the correct views that
I hold. ;-)
Dave (ASA

On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 19:11:25 -0600 (MDT) gordon brown
<Gordon.Brown@Colorado.EDU> writes:
> On Sun, 9 Aug 2009, John Walley wrote:
> > First of all I would say that all pastors should be required to be
> educated
> > about science. They should all be conversant and fluent about all
> the
> > science faith issues that comprise the modern day ideological
> battlefield
> > including age of the earth and evolution. They should be familiar
> with all
> > the facts of science on both of these issues including dating
> methods and
> > pseudogenes and have read all the popular authors on the subject
> like Ross,
> > Collins, Miler, Falk, McGrath etc. I think all pastors should be
> as educated
> > on these issues as the average member of this list who is just an
> avid truth
> > seeker and not a professional minister excepting George and
> Michael and
> > maybe a couple of others. We have come to accept stupidity and
> excuses from
> > our church leadership and we are just ok with that. Well I for one
> am not.
> > If I was in charge of a denomination they would all be fired. This
> is one of
> > the most foundational issues of the faith and not only is it the
> modern
> > spiritual weapon that the enemy is using to marginalize and
> criminalize
> > Christianity, it also gets to the core issue of objective reality
> and how we
> > know anything. Without a desire to have this understanding, to me
> > Christianity is certainly impotent and almost meaningless. It is
> hard for me
> > to accept the spiritual authority of any pastor who doesn't show
> at least an
> > interest or a desire to press through to understand these issues.
> I can
> > accept disagreement from those that are on the journey and trying
> to
> > understand but not from those who just write it off and dismiss it
> out of
> > hand, which are most from my experience.
> >
> I think it is unrealistic to expect that all pastors are ever going
> to be
> as knowledgeable about science as the average member of this list. It
> would be a big improvement over the present situation if they simply
> knew
> enough science to be able to discern which people are credible
> authorities
> on which scientific subjects.
> Gordon Brown (ASA member)
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Received on Mon Aug 10 07:28:21 2009

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