Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth

From: John Walley <>
Date: Sun Aug 09 2009 - 19:40:42 EDT

First of all I would say that all pastors should be required to be educated about science. They should all be conversant and fluent about all the science faith issues that comprise the modern day ideological battlefield including age of the earth and evolution. They should be familiar with all the facts of science on both of these issues including dating methods and pseudogenes and have read all the popular authors on the subject like Ross, Collins, Miler, Falk, McGrath etc. I think all pastors should be as educated on these issues as the average member of this list who is just an avid truth seeker and not a professional minister excepting George and Michael and maybe a couple of others. We have come to accept stupidity and excuses from our church leadership and we are just ok with that. Well I for one am not. If I was in charge of a denomination they would all be fired. This is one of the most foundational issues of the faith and not only is it the
 modern spiritual weapon that the enemy is using to marginalize and criminalize Christianity, it also gets to the core issue of objective reality and how we know anything. Without a desire to have this understanding, to me Christianity is certainly impotent and almost meaningless. It is hard for me to accept the spiritual authority of any pastor who doesn't show at least an interest or a desire to press through to understand these issues. I can accept disagreement from those that are on the journey and trying to understand but not from those who just write it off and dismiss it out of hand, which are most from my experience. There once was a day when church scholars were the thought leaders for all of society and education and intelligence and applied Christian theology were synonymous. That is how it should still be today as well. Collins and the above are bright spots that give me hope that it may be that way again but first we have to get all the fundamentalist ignorant Bible thumpers out of the way first. The prescription is not a formula for what they should be saying or doing but instead an honest, humble quest for Truth with the willingness to repent of religious pride and tradition, status and self identity, ego and all the other things that keep people locked in that spiritual jail. Once they encounter the true God that aligns with the record of nature and that they worship in spirit in truth instead of the idol they make for themselves from their over literal and over concordist finite understanding of the Bible, then they will know what to say and do and things
 will start changing. We have had the discussion before on this list that the Reformation did a lot of good for the church but one of the not so good things it did was to create an anything goes theological free-for-all. Every church's doctrine is as good as any other and you can find a denomination for whatever combination of subjective pet beliefs and doctrines you care to cherish. What is now missing from prostestantism is the concept of the Magisterium where there really is a right and wrong that is decided by competent and qualified experts with a rationale that serves all. I have a feeling that this is where God is trying to bring the protestant church back to but I shudder to think of what it might take to get the church from here to there. Thanks John   ________________________________ From: Schwarzwald <> To: Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2009 2:25:54 PM Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth If that's the case, John, then what do you think the course of action should be for pastors and church leaders when it comes to this question? What should they be saying, how should they be saying it, etc? On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 1:21 PM, John Walley <> wrote: The problem with this is that if we can't do any better than three mutually exclusive datasets in a world where their choice will make or break their career, then I agree with them in their decision to leave the church. > >If pastors and the church can't figure this out then I don't blame anyone for not having any respect for them and not trusting them. > >They are not only not relevant but actually counterproductive by obfuscating what should be a cut and dried issue. > >I count myself among these you are lamenting and I put the onus on the church to be the solution. > >Thanks > >John > > >On Sat Aug 8th, 2009 10:39 PM EDT James Patterson wrote: > >>It seems to me that this baby/bathwater problem is even more serious right >>now because of a seemingly growing inclination among many of the young to >>instantly turn off the voice of (respect for) anyone who self-compromises >>their message by uttering something that immediately registers as untrue, is >>accompanied by an unwelcome (to the hearer) agenda, or fails to connect >>however tenuously with the questions floating around in the hearer's >>recently discovered and dynamically growing internal worldview. >> >> >> >>Jim, agreed. >> >> >> >>One thing my wife has mentioned several times, with which I agree, and that >>gets back to the "are they really a Christian if they leave the Church" >>issue. Many of these young adults go and taste the world, and find it >>distasteful. It does not sit well with what is written on their hearts. They >>gain perspective, insight, learn to see that man and the Church are not >>perfect. Some also learn in time that, despite its problems, the Church is >>(vastly) better in an imperfect form than no Church at all. >> >> >> >>I know that's what happened with me. >> >> >> >>Despite all our debate about how God did it, we agree that God created us. >>We really should be able to figure out a way to provide to young people >>convincing evidence that - despite the fact that we can't agree on HOW - he >>DID create us. The problem is that they (the "average" college student) need >>evidence.and we have (at least) three different datasets. >> >> >> >>James Patterson >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > >To unsubscribe, send a message to with >"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message. >

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Received on Sun Aug 9 19:41:39 2009

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