RE: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth

From: <>
Date: Fri Aug 07 2009 - 01:12:30 EDT

I think that you misinterpreted what John wrote. John said that the
statement of Ross as reported by the local paper was arrogant. In that
assessment I would agree with him.

> John: Your bias with regard to anything RTB or Hugh Ross says is well
> known.if there is any arrogance anywhere, it is yours. I have never seen
> or
> heard arrogance from Hugh Ross, and don't believe you have either. Do you
> think your personal attacks are helpful? See point 2 below.
> As to this thread:
> 1. Ken Ham is being true to form.
> 2. I agree with previous authors that the division amongst camps and
> the general origins debate may help accelerate the exodus. However, I
> think
> it's clear that youth see division and lack of unity and use that as yet
> another reason to leave. There are many other reasons, however. They all
> sense the moral law written on their hearts, and sense that atheism is
> wrong. They all sense that the politics of religion, and the division of
> the
> origins debate are wrong, and get even more confused. Then the world
> provides the impetus to be diverted into any number of other possible
> answers that lack the fulfillment of Christ.and off they go. The most
> critical juncture is college. Easily convinced of whatever, and free to
> follow, and chagrined by the conflict in the church.
> 3. I see this every day in my work as in emergency psychiatry. It's
> been happening more and more since the 60s..and it's accelerating. We've
> had
> three generations now. See this PPT:
> The breakdown in the values of our society are overwhelming.
> James
> From: [] On
> Behalf Of John Walley
> Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 7:23 PM
> To: Schwarzwald;
> Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth
> Incredibly, YEC's are not the only ones to fall to the tempation of this
> prideful self-delusion. When Dr. Ross visited FL a few years ago, he was
> interviewed by a local paper and made the comparison with Paul's statement
> that if the resurrection wasn't true then the gospel wasn't true, by
> saying
> that if the RTB Testable Creation Model wasn't true then the gospel wasn't
> true.
> I couldn't believe the arrogance of that and we took them to task on it on
> the apologists list but the response given was that he really didn't say
> that although that is exactly what the article printed him having said.
> John
> _____
> From: Schwarzwald <>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2009 11:46:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth
> Heya Dave,
> I've seen that claim from some YECs (If a YEC interpretation of Genesis is
> wrong, then the whole bible is wrong!), and I consider it not only
> incorrect, but tremendously harmful. I also happen to think that
> addressing
> that view is the single most important goal in the entire inter-Christian
> origins debate. In other words: Whether or not an individual or
> congregation
> is YEC should be a secondary concern to their accepting that YEC simply is
> not the only rational and valid option. I've also encountered some who
> think
> that if humans are "just apes" then someone God doesn't exist, or doesn't
> love us, etc. That view is a strange one, and yet another that deserves a
> thoughtful response.
> Either way, I'm simply trying to point out that the reason for circling
> the
> wagons around a YEC position strikes me as multifaceted, and does not
> reduce
> to a single naive theological viewpoint. There really seems to be a
> greater
> fear of what accepting "evolution" inevitably leads to spiritually and
> intellectually - and that on a certain level, it's hard to fault them for
> making that association. My worry is that there's a tendency among many
> non-
> and ex-YECs to react to YECism by simply pounding on "You're wrong, wrong,
> wrong! about science!" when there are other dimensions to the issue, and
> the
> science (While in my view correct, or at least closer to the truth) isn't
> or
> shouldn't be the main focus besides. As you've noted, they think that if
> evolution is true, then that implies something necessarily degrading about
> humanity - that should be argued against. They think that if evolution is
> true, then a panoply of negative views are either justified or
> necessitated
> - that should be argued against.
> I'd also agree with Richard Blinne that "de-politicizing" faith is
> important. Though I'd also stress that "de-politicizing" (not that he
> implied otherwise) does not simply mean "moving left", but disentangling
> the
> Church from partisan politics. I'd also add that there are many cases
> where
> I agree with the "religious right" on a specific issue, but strongly
> disagree with their approach or even rationale on such issues. But
> questions
> of politics and approach is a larger, thornier question on the whole
> anyway.
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Dave Wallace <>
> wrote:
> Schwarzwald wrote:
> And take a look at the survey Ted linked to here. Notice that the concern
> isn't just that accepting an old earth (and I would assume evolution by
> extension) leads to young Christians leaving the church, but just what
> their
> social lives and outlooks on the world become as well. So I think it's a
> big
> mistake to think YECs and people like Ham are totally motivated by a
> simple
> theological difference of opinion. The perceived spiritual repercussions
> and
> effects of accepting evolution - even if the link is a contingent rather
> than a necessary one - is also a motivating factor, and not so simple to
> write off.
> It seems to me that part of the motivation is typical YECs belief that if
> any part of the Bible is not literally true then the whole reliability of
> scripture unravels. I read Francis Schaeffers "Genisus in Space and Time"
> quite a few years ago. Although Schaeffer took the view of scripture
> above
> he still found room for an old earth and a number of other options, as
> best
> I recall.
> Another issue for many YECs is that they have a horror of being descended
> from what they see as a banana eating jungle monkeys.
> In the survey it referenced conservative evangelical churches. I wonder
> how
> many of them were actually fundamentalists who years ago often rejected
> the
> label of evangelical. My experience was that such churches often
> absolutized what imo was clearly relative, frequently limited the
> application of Christianity to church meetings and Sunday and pretended to
> a
> perfection they did not live up to and were highly anti intellectual.
> After
> university my wife and I came close to packing it in with Christianity as
> what I describe above was frequently what we had been exposed to. I found
> Schaeffer's critique of fundies very much too the point and reading his
> (and
> his associates) books and visiting L'abri was the start of turning things
> around. IVCF and their books was also a huge help both in high school
> and
> university. In 1966 a year or so after finishing my masters in applied
> math we moved to New Jersey where I was employed by RCA. We bought a
> distressed house in a new subdivision next to a negro family. We ended up
> attending a liberal church as most of the more conservative churches
> enthusiastically supported missionaries to the African benighted, but had
> NO
> negros in the congregation and I could not stomach such organizations.
> Many
> similar churches exist today and I expect their young people have left at
> a
> very young age, even though they are forced to attend church till they
> leave
> home.
> Although my father was not YEC, the church's we attended were. Thankfully
> as
> part of a survival strategy, I had learned to keep some of my thoughts and
> beliefs to my self when I attended "Christian" boarding schools
> (kindergarten thro grade 11) so I just ignored the YEC part of their
> propaganda. At boarding school we were frequently forced to attend what
> in
> essence was a Sunday school held in the afternoon. I found that
> experience
> highly destructive as we were patronized, talked down to, fed pabulum and
> on
> and on. It does not surprise me that those who attended many Sunday
> schools are the first to leave as I expect they have already mentally and
> emotionally left by the end of elementary school. Fortunately, at least
> in
> Africa we were taken to a service Not run by people from the boarding
> school
> where the preaching was much better as the minister as it happened to be
> was a seminary trained Presbyterian. We also attended Sunday school
> there
> which was not destructive.
> Thus overall I think that an old earth view while it may be the proximate
> cause of someone leaving is often only the straw that breaks the camel's
> back.
> Being picayune over that is what is turning people from Christianity - not
> any one particular idea about origins. This is what Chuck Swindoll calls
> "peanut butter Christians" in his book The Grace Awakening.
> As I don't read Swindoll I have no idea what he means by "peanut butter
> Christians". I admit my lack of enthusiasm for Swindoll could well be a
> cultural reaction and others might find him helpful. I much prefer
> writers
> like Martin Lloyd Jones, CS Lewis, Carl Henry, Packer, Stott or Francis
> Schaeffer.
> Dave W

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Received on Fri Aug 7 01:13:46 2009

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