RE: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth

From: John Walley <>
Date: Fri Aug 07 2009 - 01:06:47 EDT

As I said, it was incredible. I will admit it was a departure from the normal Hugh Ross but nevertheless that was how he was quoted as having said. There is no arrogance in reporting fact.

It was a rare glimpse into how they really feel about their model and it explains why they like you continue to deny the obvious evidence from the genome regarding how God created man. Yes unity of the church is important but so is truth. We can all agree to love and support one another's ministries and motives but kids will still leave the church if we teach them stuff that they know is not true. It boils down to simple integrity.


On Thu Aug 6th, 2009 11:51 PM EDT James Patterson wrote:

>John: Your bias with regard to anything RTB or Hugh Ross says is well
>known.if there is any arrogance anywhere, it is yours. I have never seen or
>heard arrogance from Hugh Ross, and don't believe you have either. Do you
>think your personal attacks are helpful? See point 2 below.
>As to this thread:
>1. Ken Ham is being true to form.
>2. I agree with previous authors that the division amongst camps and
>the general origins debate may help accelerate the exodus. However, I think
>it's clear that youth see division and lack of unity and use that as yet
>another reason to leave. There are many other reasons, however. They all
>sense the moral law written on their hearts, and sense that atheism is
>wrong. They all sense that the politics of religion, and the division of the
>origins debate are wrong, and get even more confused. Then the world
>provides the impetus to be diverted into any number of other possible
>answers that lack the fulfillment of Christ.and off they go. The most
>critical juncture is college. Easily convinced of whatever, and free to
>follow, and chagrined by the conflict in the church.
>3. I see this every day in my work as in emergency psychiatry. It's
>been happening more and more since the 60s..and it's accelerating. We've had
>three generations now. See this PPT:
>The breakdown in the values of our society are overwhelming.
>From: [] On
>Behalf Of John Walley
>Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 7:23 PM
>To: Schwarzwald;
>Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth
>Incredibly, YEC's are not the only ones to fall to the tempation of this
>prideful self-delusion. When Dr. Ross visited FL a few years ago, he was
>interviewed by a local paper and made the comparison with Paul's statement
>that if the resurrection wasn't true then the gospel wasn't true, by saying
>that if the RTB Testable Creation Model wasn't true then the gospel wasn't
>I couldn't believe the arrogance of that and we took them to task on it on
>the apologists list but the response given was that he really didn't say
>that although that is exactly what the article printed him having said.
> _____
>From: Schwarzwald <>
>Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2009 11:46:57 AM
>Subject: Re: [asa] Youth leaving churches because of old earth
>Heya Dave,
>I've seen that claim from some YECs (If a YEC interpretation of Genesis is
>wrong, then the whole bible is wrong!), and I consider it not only
>incorrect, but tremendously harmful. I also happen to think that addressing
>that view is the single most important goal in the entire inter-Christian
>origins debate. In other words: Whether or not an individual or congregation
>is YEC should be a secondary concern to their accepting that YEC simply is
>not the only rational and valid option. I've also encountered some who think
>that if humans are "just apes" then someone God doesn't exist, or doesn't
>love us, etc. That view is a strange one, and yet another that deserves a
>thoughtful response.
>Either way, I'm simply trying to point out that the reason for circling the
>wagons around a YEC position strikes me as multifaceted, and does not reduce
>to a single naive theological viewpoint. There really seems to be a greater
>fear of what accepting "evolution" inevitably leads to spiritually and
>intellectually - and that on a certain level, it's hard to fault them for
>making that association. My worry is that there's a tendency among many non-
>and ex-YECs to react to YECism by simply pounding on "You're wrong, wrong,
>wrong! about science!" when there are other dimensions to the issue, and the
>science (While in my view correct, or at least closer to the truth) isn't or
>shouldn't be the main focus besides. As you've noted, they think that if
>evolution is true, then that implies something necessarily degrading about
>humanity - that should be argued against. They think that if evolution is
>true, then a panoply of negative views are either justified or necessitated
>- that should be argued against.
>I'd also agree with Richard Blinne that "de-politicizing" faith is
>important. Though I'd also stress that "de-politicizing" (not that he
>implied otherwise) does not simply mean "moving left", but disentangling the
>Church from partisan politics. I'd also add that there are many cases where
>I agree with the "religious right" on a specific issue, but strongly
>disagree with their approach or even rationale on such issues. But questions
>of politics and approach is a larger, thornier question on the whole anyway.
>On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Dave Wallace <>
>Schwarzwald wrote:
>And take a look at the survey Ted linked to here. Notice that the concern
>isn't just that accepting an old earth (and I would assume evolution by
>extension) leads to young Christians leaving the church, but just what their
>social lives and outlooks on the world become as well. So I think it's a big
>mistake to think YECs and people like Ham are totally motivated by a simple
>theological difference of opinion. The perceived spiritual repercussions and
>effects of accepting evolution - even if the link is a contingent rather
>than a necessary one - is also a motivating factor, and not so simple to
>write off.
>It seems to me that part of the motivation is typical YECs belief that if
>any part of the Bible is not literally true then the whole reliability of
>scripture unravels. I read Francis Schaeffers "Genisus in Space and Time"
>quite a few years ago. Although Schaeffer took the view of scripture above
>he still found room for an old earth and a number of other options, as best
>I recall.
>Another issue for many YECs is that they have a horror of being descended
>from what they see as a banana eating jungle monkeys.
>In the survey it referenced conservative evangelical churches. I wonder how
>many of them were actually fundamentalists who years ago often rejected the
>label of evangelical. My experience was that such churches often
>absolutized what imo was clearly relative, frequently limited the
>application of Christianity to church meetings and Sunday and pretended to a
>perfection they did not live up to and were highly anti intellectual. After
>university my wife and I came close to packing it in with Christianity as
>what I describe above was frequently what we had been exposed to. I found
>Schaeffer's critique of fundies very much too the point and reading his (and
>his associates) books and visiting L'abri was the start of turning things
>around. IVCF and their books was also a huge help both in high school and
>university. In 1966 a year or so after finishing my masters in applied
>math we moved to New Jersey where I was employed by RCA. We bought a
>distressed house in a new subdivision next to a negro family. We ended up
>attending a liberal church as most of the more conservative churches
>enthusiastically supported missionaries to the African benighted, but had NO
>negros in the congregation and I could not stomach such organizations. Many
>similar churches exist today and I expect their young people have left at a
>very young age, even though they are forced to attend church till they leave
>Although my father was not YEC, the church's we attended were. Thankfully as
>part of a survival strategy, I had learned to keep some of my thoughts and
>beliefs to my self when I attended "Christian" boarding schools
>(kindergarten thro grade 11) so I just ignored the YEC part of their
>propaganda. At boarding school we were frequently forced to attend what in
>essence was a Sunday school held in the afternoon. I found that experience
>highly destructive as we were patronized, talked down to, fed pabulum and on
>and on. It does not surprise me that those who attended many Sunday
>schools are the first to leave as I expect they have already mentally and
>emotionally left by the end of elementary school. Fortunately, at least in
>Africa we were taken to a service Not run by people from the boarding school
>where the preaching was much better as the minister as it happened to be
>was a seminary trained Presbyterian. We also attended Sunday school there
>which was not destructive.
>Thus overall I think that an old earth view while it may be the proximate
>cause of someone leaving is often only the straw that breaks the camel's
>Being picayune over that is what is turning people from Christianity - not
>any one particular idea about origins. This is what Chuck Swindoll calls
>"peanut butter Christians" in his book The Grace Awakening.
>As I don't read Swindoll I have no idea what he means by "peanut butter
>Christians". I admit my lack of enthusiasm for Swindoll could well be a
>cultural reaction and others might find him helpful. I much prefer writers
>like Martin Lloyd Jones, CS Lewis, Carl Henry, Packer, Stott or Francis
>Dave W


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Received on Fri Aug 7 01:07:47 2009

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