RE: [asa] Cameron- question of Adam (from George on DNA)

From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Date: Fri Jun 26 2009 - 16:38:15 EDT

George said:
" Purely as devil's advocate & only for the sake of the present discussion I'm proposing Theory B. Now tell us how you distinguish between them observationally."

I think someone can play devil's advocate for any wacky idea, but the real question is, does anyone seriously offer that hypothesis? If so, please identify who would claim it? I don't think Ken Ham would, for example. I can't imagine anyone seriously proposing it, so please tell me who does. I want to know if it is just a strawman. I suspect it is.

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: George Murphy [mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 1:11 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie; asa
Subject: Re: [asa] Cameron- question of Adam (from George on DNA)

Bernie -

Purely as devil's advocate & only for the sake of the present discussion I'm
proposing Theory B. Now tell us how you distinguish between them
observationally.

But of course that theory is, in fact, exactly what is proposed by those to
appeal to "apparent age" - though perhaps with different details depnding on
whether the subject is fossils, radioactive dating, distant starlight &c. I
suspect that you realize that you can't in fact refute this idea
observationally so you're trying to change it into one you think you can
refute. Sorry, it won't work.

Shalom
George
http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
To: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 6:49 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Cameron- question of Adam (from George on DNA)

>
> George said:
> " Put it this way. The idea of a "crucial experiment" is often
> over-emphasized but here it's helpful. You have 2 theories:
>
> A Changes in human DNA took place over a period of many thousands of
> years through evolutionary processes.
>
> B Human DNA was created about 6000 years ago pretty much as it is now,
> and at that time was designed by God to make it look as if it had evolved
> exactly as proposed by theory A.
>
> What scientific experiment or observation would you propose in order to
> distinguish between those two theories?"
>
> My reply:
>
> Nobody starts out with your hypothesis B. Can you name me one person who
> would state the hypothesis that way? As far as I can tell, YEC's like Ken
> Ham wouldn't say that. They would just say there are similarities because
> the genes need to do the same function. Again, please name a name- which
> leading YEC would claim about DNA that " ... at that time was designed by
> God to make it look as if it had evolved exactly as proposed by theory A."
>
> I think you are putting up a straw man there.
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmurphy10@neo.rr.com [mailto:gmurphy10@neo.rr.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 1:23 PM
> To: asa; Dehler, Bernie
> Subject: RE: [asa] Cameron- question of Adam
>
> Bernie -
>
> 1st, although this is peripheral to the question at issue I have to repeat
> that in the context of general relativity a geocentric reference frame is,
> in principle, just as good as a heliocentric one. General relativity
> really is general.
>
> 2d, statements about what happened in the past are susceptible to apparent
> age arguments while claims about what is going on in the world aren't.
>
> 3d, you are simply missing the point of apparent age arguments. A YEC who
> uses them freely admits that the things in question - DNA, isotopic
> abundances, &c - make it appear that the systems in question are very old.
> You don't need to keep repeating your scientific arguments because the YEC
> accepts them. Then he says that things didn't really happen that way but
> God created those systems recently and arranged everything - EVERYTHING -
> to make them look old. & there is simply no SCIENTIFIC way to refute that
> argument.
>
> Put it this way. The idea of a "crucial experiment" is often
> over-emphasized but here it's helpful. You have 2 theories:
>
> A Changes in human DNA took place over a period of many thousands of
> years through evolutionary processes.
>
> B Human DNA was created about 6000 years ago pretty much as it is now,
> and at that time was designed by God to make it look as if it had evolved
> exactly as proposed by theory A.
>
> What scientific experiment or observation would you propose in order to
> distinguish between those two theories?
>
> Again, lest there be any doubt, I absolutely reject & abominate apparent
> age arguments. They represent wretched theology and, among other things,
> would make any attempt to learn what really happened in the past
> impossible. But it is not possible for someone operating within the
> confines of science to show that they're false.
>
> Shalom,
> George
>
>
> ---- "Dehler wrote:
>> George- would you say the same thing to a person who is combating the
>> believer who insists that the universe revolves around the Earth? God
>> could make it look otherwise there, too (heliocentricity is an illusion,
>> etc.). My argument is that you can prove evolution from DNA just as
>> easily as you can prove heliocentricity. Neither can be denied. Both
>> are obvious once confronted with the facts.
>>
>> Hypothesis A: Humans created biologically from dirt.
>>
>> Hypothesis B: Humans created biologically from other creatures.
>>
>> I have no tolerance for someone who sticks to hypothesis A, recognizes
>> the evidence of hypothesis B, and says God could have accomplished A by
>> making it look B.
>>
>> Each hypothesis has its own consequence of what the DNA record would look
>> like if true.
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: George Murphy [mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com]
>> Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 5:06 PM
>> To: Dehler, Bernie; asa
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Cameron- question of Adam
>>
>> Bernie -
>>
>> I did not say that apparent age arguments were good, just that they can't
>> be
>> refuted by arguments that are only scientific or philosophical. From the
>> standpoint of a sound theology that takes scientific evidence seriously,
>> they're preposterous. But that's a theological assessment. As soon as a
>> person responds to your arguments about DNA by saying "But God could have
>> ..." you're going to have to start talking theology & not just science.
>>
>> Shalom
>> George
>> http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
>> To: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
>> Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 6:09 PM
>> Subject: RE: [asa] Cameron- question of Adam
>>
>>
>> > George said:
>> > "Cameron is right on the basic point here: The "apparent age"
>> > argument -
>> > of which appropriate fabrication of human DNA would be a special case -
>> > cannot be refuted scientifically"
>> >
>> > We all know how strong the DNA evidence is in a court of law. If you
>> > are
>> > accused of killing someone, and have the victims blood all over your
>> > clothes and on your person, yet claim to have been somewhere else when
>> > the
>> > murder happened, the "science" takes over and no one will believe your
>> > story. The DNA evidence must be accepted. It is overwhelming. It is
>> > not
>> > absolute 'proof,' but it is obvious.
>> >
>> > In the same way, the DNA evidence for evolution is overwhelming. In
>> > the
>> > same exact way, any court of law could say evolution happened beyond a
>> > reasonable doubt, because of the DNA evidence.
>> >
>> > If theologians want to put their head in the sand, they can, but I see
>> > no
>> > valid scientific way to explain away the DNA evidence- and it is on
>> > exhibit in the 'court of public opinion.' It is the same as if they
>> > rejected heliocentricity for theological reasons. Anyone can claim
>> > heliocentricity can't be proved scientifically too- but of course they
>> > would be quite ignorant scientifically to deny heliocentricity. Same
>> > exact thing with the DNA genomic evidence.
>> >
>> > About 10 years from now, to argue against the DNA evidence for
>> > evolution
>> > would be the same ridiculous thing as arguing against heliocentricity,
>> > as
>> > genomic studies make the case stronger and stronger. It is already an
>> > "open and shut case" but meanwhile, the genomic evidence keeps
>> > building.
>> > But 10 years from now I think kids in grade school will be learning
>> > these
>> > things- just as they now learn about heliocentricity in grade school.
>> >
>> > To even be accepting of ignorant people (preachers at our local
>> > churches
>> > no less) who reject the DNA evidence is a mockery on Christianity.
>> > Atheists claim that Christians are idiots, and this serves to justify
>> > their claim.
>> >
>> > Just my opinion.
>> >
>> > And Cameron- I have a strong opinion, not because I accepted evolution
>> > and
>> > am doing a boomerang. It is because I have a strong interest in
>> > evangelism and meet regularly with atheists. The short-comings of
>> > Christianity need to be identified and corrected. If we don't
>> > self-correct, we either rot, or have to get corrected by outsiders. It
>> > is
>> > time to clean house. Too many are resigned to living in a condemned
>> > home,
>> > because they are comfortable within it, or because acceptance of peers
>> > is
>> > more important to them than truth... (correcting is painful).
>> > Correction,
>> > I'm sure, is NEVER fun.
>> >
>> > ...Bernie
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>> > Behalf Of George Murphy
>> > Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 12:09 PM
>> > To: Cameron Wybrow; asa
>> > Subject: Re: [asa] Cameron- question of Adam
>> >
>> > Cameron is right on the basic point here: The "apparent age"
>> > argument -
>> > of
>> > which appropriate fabrication of human DNA would be a special case -
>> > cannot
>> > be refuted scientifically or, for that matter, philosophically. Among
>> > philosophers of science this goes by the name "Russell's Paradox."
>> > (Bertrand Russell, who pointed it out, obviously was not trying to
>> > defend
>> > the historicity of Genesis!) One discussion of it is Malcolm Acock,
>> > "The
>> > Age of the Universe", Philosophy of Science 50, 1983, 130. The
>> > argument
>> > against apparent age has to be basically theological, & I think can be
>> > made
>> > pretty strongly.
>> >
>> >
>> > Shalom
>> > George
>> > http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Cameron Wybrow" <wybrowc@sympatico.ca>
>> > To: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
>> > Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 12:34 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [asa] Cameron- question of Adam
>> >
>> >
>> >> Bernie:
>> >>
>> >> You seem to be impervious to even the most careful writing. It should
>> >> be
>> >> clear to you by now that I have not been speaking of my own doubts
>> >> about
>> >> the DNA evidence, but have been trying to explain to you how YECs can
>> >> justify those doubts. And technically speaking, they are right -- you
>> >> cannot clinch the argument without resorting to a theological
>> >> assumption -- i.e., that God would not produce DNA that could be
>> >> mistaken
>> >> to imply historical relationships. But I have never endorsed the YEC
>> >> conclusion. I have said that I find the arguments from DNA
>> >> reasonable.
>> >> It's just that those of us trained in philosophy have higher standards
>> >> for
>> >> "proof" than Darwinian evolutionists do, so we qualify all
>> >> knowledge-claims to a degree which does not please you.
>> >>
>> >> You are a former evolution denier, and therefore it is not surprising
>> >> that
>> >> you now vehemently affirm evolution, with the confidence with which
>> >> former
>> >> smokers attack smoking or former meat-eaters preach vegetarianism.
>> >> Such
>> >> extreme positional swings are not uncommon in these debates,
>> >> especially
>> >> among those who have swung from YEC to TE. But I was never a YEC and
>> >> never an evolution denier. The only thing that has changed for me is
>> >> that
>> >> I have come to doubt that a wholly naturalistic explanation for the
>> >> evolutionary process is possible. Darwin and his leading disciples
>> >> have
>> >> insisted on a wholly naturalistic explanation for the evolutionary
>> >> process. I've come to think that this is unlikely, or at least that
>> >> if a
>> >> naturalistic explanation is available, it is on Dentonian rather than
>> >> Darwinian lines.
>> >>
>> >> You say that you are amazed at the stubbornness of YEC people
>> >> regarding
>> >> DNA evidence. I'm amazed at the stubbornness of both atheist and TE
>> >> Darwinists regarding the evidence for design in organic nature.
>> >> Indeed,
>> >> it's so obvious that TEs have to resort to a strained application of
>> >> "methodological naturalism" (a principle innocent in itself) to rule
>> >> out
>> >> of court what every honest and rational person can see just by looking
>> >> at
>> >> nature. But perhaps Stephen Meyer's new book will convince you of the
>> >> design of DNA; it comes out tomorrow. Happy reading!
>> >>
>> >> Cameron.
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
>> >> To: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
>> >> Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 11:08 AM
>> >> Subject: RE: [asa] Cameron- question of Adam
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Cameron said:
>> >>> "Therefore, your suggestion that I still need a bit of tutoring to
>> >>> understand the evidence for evolution rather dumbfounds me. But if
>> >>> you
>> >>> are really convinced that I need such tutoring, perhaps you could
>> >>> recommend one of your scientific publications to me, and I will look
>> >>> at
>> >>> it, to see if there are any arguments that I have missed.
>> >>>
>> >>> You continue to miss the point of my argument about the fused
>> >>> chromosome.
>> >>> I said that it remains logically possible that God created humans and
>> >>> chimps independently, with exactly the chromosomal arrangements that
>> >>> they
>> >>> have, and that your argument comes down to "God wouldn't have done it
>> >>> that way". But YEC people can just retort that God must have done it
>> >>> that way, since that is what we see. It is just one theological
>> >>> statement against another, and science cannot resolve the impasse."
>> >>>
>> >>> Cameron- as far as I'm concerned, if you really UNDERSTOOD the
>> >>> evidence
>> >>> for fused human chromosome #2, then there's no debate over evolution.
>> >>> You are familiar with the DNA evidence for evolution, but you don't
>> >>> know
>> >>> how to apply it. I think you are like someone who knows that 2+2=4
>> >>> yet
>> >>> can't apply it to real life (such as 2 apples plus 2 apples = 4
>> >>> apples).
>> >>>
>> >>> If the chromosome #2 evidence, by itself, can't prove evolution to
>> >>> you,
>> >>> then NOTHING will. On top of that, ther is the pseudogene evidence.
>> >>> Each in its own right is enough evidence, but both together is
>> >>> overkill
>> >>> in showing that evolution actually happened.
>> >>>
>> >>> You have to ask your "What evidence would I need to see to be sure
>> >>> that
>> >>> evolution happened?" If the answer is "Nothing will prove it to me"
>> >>> then
>> >>> you are blind to all evidence. I think if you answer the question
>> >>> intellectually and honestly, the answer is in DNA and the answer is
>> >>> in
>> >>> fused chromosome 2 and pseudogenes.
>> >>>
>> >>> Just my opinion, from one former evolution-denier.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm amazed at the stubbornness of YEC's to refuse accepting the DNA
>> >>> evidence since it has recently been available. And the evidence is
>> >>> building rapidly as genomic studies continue.
>> >>>
>> >>> ...Bernie
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
>> >>> On
>> >>> Behalf Of Cameron Wybrow
>> >>> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 5:35 PM
>> >>> To: asa
>> >>> Subject: Re: [asa] Cameron- question of Adam
>> >>>
>> >>> Bernie:
>> >>>
>> >>> I spent the early part of my life as a Darwinist and learned my
>> >>> catechism
>> >>> well. I could recite the entire litany of pro-evolutionary arguments
>> >>> (comparative anatomy, vestigial organs, ontogeny recapitulates
>> >>> phylogeny,
>> >>> peppered moths, antibiotic resistance, fused chromosomes,
>> >>> biogeographical
>> >>> distribution, etc.) in my sleep. I would have thought that the level
>> >>> of
>> >>> my
>> >>> discussions would have made this clear to you. Therefore, your
>> >>> suggestion
>> >>> that I still need a bit of tutoring to understand the evidence for
>> >>> evolution
>> >>> rather dumbfounds me. But if you are really convinced that I need
>> >>> such
>> >>> tutoring, perhaps you could recommend one of your scientific
>> >>> publications
>> >>> to
>> >>> me, and I will look at it, to see if there are any arguments that I
>> >>> have
>> >>> missed.
>> >>>
>> >>> You continue to miss the point of my argument about the fused
>> >>> chromosome.
>> >>> I
>> >>> said that it remains logically possible that God created humans and
>> >>> chimps
>> >>> independently, with exactly the chromosomal arrangements that they
>> >>> have,
>> >>> and
>> >>> that your argument comes down to "God wouldn't have done it that
>> >>> way".
>> >>> But
>> >>> YEC people can just retort that God must have done it that way, since
>> >>> that
>> >>> is what we see. It is just one theological statement against
>> >>> another,
>> >>> and
>> >>> science cannot resolve the impasse.
>> >>>
>> >>> You don't seem to grasp that you will never budge a YEC proponent by
>> >>> the
>> >>> fused chromosome argument, or any such argument. The problem is not
>> >>> that
>> >>> YECs are dumb at science. Many of them are in fact quite bright at
>> >>> science,
>> >>> and hold down jobs in various scientific fields. The problem is the
>> >>> way
>> >>> that YECs read the Bible. They think that they have the religious
>> >>> duty
>> >>> not
>> >>> to accept arguments for common descent because they think the Bible
>> >>> offers a
>> >>> literal account of origins. So even those YECs who have a very keen
>> >>> understanding of science will find ways, however contrived, of
>> >>> re-interpreting the data in order to preserve literalism. Until you
>> >>> can
>> >>> change the way they read the Bible, you are beating your head against
>> >>> a
>> >>> stone wall to keep trying to amass genetic arguments, comparative
>> >>> anatomy
>> >>> arguments, etc.
>> >>>
>> >>> As for your comments about outreach, your Americocentric remarks show
>> >>> that
>> >>> you are entirely unfamiliar with the Canadian religious and cultural
>> >>> scene
>> >>> and are therefore not in a position to say what would or would not
>> >>> work
>> >>> up
>> >>> here. It is best that I say no more on this point.
>> >>>
>> >>> Cameron.
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
>> >>> To: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
>> >>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:29 PM
>> >>> Subject: RE: [asa] Cameron- question of Adam
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Cameron- you also said that you might think it was possible that God
>> >>>> created Adam, biologically, from scratch, from a pile of dirt.
>> >>>> First,
>> >>>> you
>> >>>> need to understand and fully accept the biological origins for
>> >>>> humans.
>> >>>> You haven't done that completely yet. When you do, you will be able
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> rule-out the possibility of Adam being made, biologically, YEC
>> >>>> style.
>> >>>> Then you will come to see the danger of YEC to the evangelical
>> >>>> church.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The people you want to reach, of course, won't consider
>> >>>> Christianity,
>> >>>> because they conflate it with YEC... which is unscientific. If you
>> >>>> want
>> >>>> to reach atheists, I think you also need to simultaneously rebuke
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> YEC's, who block the path to Christianity from the intellectuals who
>> >>>> may
>> >>>> want to join.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Too many think that you have to believe in a global flood and a
>> >>>> young
>> >>>> earth in order to be an evangelical. That's why they need to be
>> >>>> told
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> another way into Christianity.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ...Bernie
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>> >>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>> >>>
>> >>>
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Received on Fri Jun 26 16:39:08 2009

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