RE: [asa] Cameron- question of Adam

From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Date: Mon Jun 22 2009 - 11:08:00 EDT

Cameron said:
"Therefore, your suggestion that I still need a bit of tutoring to understand the evidence for evolution rather dumbfounds me. But if you are really convinced that I need such tutoring, perhaps you could recommend one of your scientific publications to me, and I will look at it, to see if there are any arguments that I have missed.

You continue to miss the point of my argument about the fused chromosome. I said that it remains logically possible that God created humans and chimps independently, with exactly the chromosomal arrangements that they have, and that your argument comes down to "God wouldn't have done it that way". But YEC people can just retort that God must have done it that way, since that is what we see. It is just one theological statement against another, and science cannot resolve the impasse."

Cameron- as far as I'm concerned, if you really UNDERSTOOD the evidence for fused human chromosome #2, then there's no debate over evolution. You are familiar with the DNA evidence for evolution, but you don't know how to apply it. I think you are like someone who knows that 2+2=4 yet can't apply it to real life (such as 2 apples plus 2 apples = 4 apples).

If the chromosome #2 evidence, by itself, can't prove evolution to you, then NOTHING will. On top of that, ther is the pseudogene evidence. Each in its own right is enough evidence, but both together is overkill in showing that evolution actually happened.

You have to ask your "What evidence would I need to see to be sure that evolution happened?" If the answer is "Nothing will prove it to me" then you are blind to all evidence. I think if you answer the question intellectually and honestly, the answer is in DNA and the answer is in fused chromosome 2 and pseudogenes.

Just my opinion, from one former evolution-denier.

I'm amazed at the stubbornness of YEC's to refuse accepting the DNA evidence since it has recently been available. And the evidence is building rapidly as genomic studies continue.

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Cameron Wybrow
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 5:35 PM
To: asa
Subject: Re: [asa] Cameron- question of Adam

Bernie:

I spent the early part of my life as a Darwinist and learned my catechism
well. I could recite the entire litany of pro-evolutionary arguments
(comparative anatomy, vestigial organs, ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny,
peppered moths, antibiotic resistance, fused chromosomes, biogeographical
distribution, etc.) in my sleep. I would have thought that the level of my
discussions would have made this clear to you. Therefore, your suggestion
that I still need a bit of tutoring to understand the evidence for evolution
rather dumbfounds me. But if you are really convinced that I need such
tutoring, perhaps you could recommend one of your scientific publications to
me, and I will look at it, to see if there are any arguments that I have
missed.

You continue to miss the point of my argument about the fused chromosome. I
said that it remains logically possible that God created humans and chimps
independently, with exactly the chromosomal arrangements that they have, and
that your argument comes down to "God wouldn't have done it that way". But
YEC people can just retort that God must have done it that way, since that
is what we see. It is just one theological statement against another, and
science cannot resolve the impasse.

You don't seem to grasp that you will never budge a YEC proponent by the
fused chromosome argument, or any such argument. The problem is not that
YECs are dumb at science. Many of them are in fact quite bright at science,
and hold down jobs in various scientific fields. The problem is the way
that YECs read the Bible. They think that they have the religious duty not
to accept arguments for common descent because they think the Bible offers a
literal account of origins. So even those YECs who have a very keen
understanding of science will find ways, however contrived, of
re-interpreting the data in order to preserve literalism. Until you can
change the way they read the Bible, you are beating your head against a
stone wall to keep trying to amass genetic arguments, comparative anatomy
arguments, etc.

As for your comments about outreach, your Americocentric remarks show that
you are entirely unfamiliar with the Canadian religious and cultural scene
and are therefore not in a position to say what would or would not work up
here. It is best that I say no more on this point.

Cameron.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
To: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:29 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Cameron- question of Adam

> Cameron- you also said that you might think it was possible that God
> created Adam, biologically, from scratch, from a pile of dirt. First, you
> need to understand and fully accept the biological origins for humans.
> You haven't done that completely yet. When you do, you will be able to
> rule-out the possibility of Adam being made, biologically, YEC style.
> Then you will come to see the danger of YEC to the evangelical church.
>
> The people you want to reach, of course, won't consider Christianity,
> because they conflate it with YEC... which is unscientific. If you want
> to reach atheists, I think you also need to simultaneously rebuke the
> YEC's, who block the path to Christianity from the intellectuals who may
> want to join.
>
> Too many think that you have to believe in a global flood and a young
> earth in order to be an evangelical. That's why they need to be told of
> another way into Christianity.
>
> ...Bernie

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Mon Jun 22 11:08:49 2009

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Mon Jun 22 2009 - 11:08:49 EDT