Re: [asa] Interview with Denis Lamoureux

From: dfsiemensjr <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
Date: Sun Jun 07 2009 - 19:15:10 EDT

Dick,
I can't share your enthusiasm for Josephus and Berossus. Both are
millennia too late. I'm no expert on Josephus, having read parts quickly,
but I don't recall that he has anything to offer of the ancient except
what is found in the Old Testament. As to Berossus, how much ancient
history could he have found? We have the king lists, with lives more than
two orders of magnitude too long. Then there's Gilgamesh's interview with
Utnapishtim (?), who had gained eternal life, and got the herbal recipe
which he lost to a snake. Does this suggest that careful histories were
kept? I think that later there were some annals, but they seem to have
been essentially single copies for the royal archives. However, it seems
amazing how much stuff on clay tablets survived.

I'll agree that the opinions of scientists have changed, but that is
because guesses on the basis of very limited information had to be
revised as new material was found. But this is radically different from
presenting a history or mythology with names and dates. Also, it doesn't
go to the heart of the problem: what evidence is there that the older
Mesopotamian documents are perverted versions of the information in the
later Hebrew documents?

If my memory serves, Langdon once presented a claim that the most ancient
Mesopotamians were monotheists, with a deity named An or Anu, the name
becoming the designator of deity of the later polytheistic gang. I'm not
sure I have the names right, but I recall the basic claim.
Dave (ASA)

On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 10:47:18 -0400 "Dick Fischer"
<dickfischer@verizon.net> writes:
> Hi Dave:
>
> These are excellent questions, probably better than my answers.
> Early
> historians Josephus, Berossus, and others drew upon written accounts
> that
> were available to them at the time in the libraries of Jerusalem and
> Babylon
> but did not survive. Today we have only a small percentage of the
> total
> amount of literature that was developed and kept in libraries in
> each city,
> however, every Sumerian city was destroyed. Also, whatever was
> deemed
> interesting and relevant was copied, the rest perished over time.
>
> The tablets of Gilgamesh were copied as he was an important king and
> it
> would be easy for a scribe to sell his works when they were about
> famous
> people or Gods. The only tablet of Gilgamesh written in Akkadian
> combined
> the two most famous people in Mesopotamian history, the Sumerian
> king and
> the Akkadian flood survivor. In all likelihood an imaginative
> scribe
> concocted the tale drawing on historical elements in circulation at
> the
> time.
>
> I am reasonably sure that the Genesis account was coalesced from
> existing
> literature, perhaps by Moses in Egypt. So to say that Genesis
> directly
> descended from any of the flood legends or from the Legend of Adapa
> is an
> oversimplification. They are all related, but there are relevant
> pieces of
> literature missing and all oral tradition is gone.
>
> I don't speculate on when human beings became "ensouled." Just as
> all of
> humanity is eligible for salvation today I assume all of humanity
> was
> eligible 7,000 years ago at the time of Adam.
>
> Polytheism stemmed from the Sumerians who had a pantheon of 3-4
> thousand
> gods. The Akkadians (Adamites and Semites) originally had three:
> Ilu (or
> Anu), Ea, and Enlil, but added Sumerian gods with Akkadian names. A
> god to
> rule the sun, one to rule the moon, another for lightning, another
> for
> thunder and on it went.
>
> The Sumerians reciprocated adding two of the Akkadian gods to their
> list.
> Enlil got second place behind father-god, "An." Ea (or Yah) was
> Enki to the
> Sumerians meaning "Lord of the Earth" and he took over fourth place
> in their
> hierarchy of gods. It appears that monotheism originated with
> Abraham and
> remained with his line of descent.
>
> I agree that when you get back this far in time it tends to get
> murky. A
> parallel can be found in the theories about the descent of mankind.
> Fifty
> years ago paleo-anthropologists drew a straight line from
> Australopithicus
> to Homo habilis to Homo erectus to Homo sapiens. Now our ancestry
> looks
> more like a rose bush with new shoots sprouting with every
> discovery.
>
> My hope is that others will follow my lead and add new information
> unknown
> to me now. My fear is that I will be drowned out by those who
> prefer to
> think that Abraham had named but mythical, nonexistent ancestors.
>
> Dick Fischer, author, lecturer
> Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham
> www.historicalgenesis.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dfsiemensjr [mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com]
> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:55 PM
> To: dickfischer@verizon.net; asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Interview with Denis Lamoureux
>
> Dick,
> It is obvious that there are parallels between the ancient
> literature of
> Mesopotamia and the first chapters of Genesis. But there is a grave
> question: did the Mesopotamian literature borrow from the basic
> material
> of Genesis, or did Genesis borrow from the Mesopotamian legends?
> The
> available evidence is that the legends antedated Genesis.
>
> As I understand your position, Adam was the first ensouled or
> inspirited
> human being, the many coexisting human-like beings and their
> descendents
> becoming ensouled by hearing Adam's message. What evidence can you
> offer
> that there was this kind of transformation spreading from
> Mesopotamia
> about 4000 B.C.? There were at least two groups that were isolated
> much
> earlier and did not contact any persons who had contact with
> Adamites
> until much later, American aborigines and Australian aborigines. How
> did
> they become fully human? Did they have to wait until the European
> explorers reached them? A related question is whether a moral code
> is
> possible without the individual possessing a soul. Can you show that
> the
> pre-Adamic Mesopotamians lacked morality? What about the aborigines
> mentioned above?
>
> The latest archeological findings seem to indicate that there was
> more
> polytheism in Israel and Judea than the scriptures note. It appears
> that
> it is easier to go from monotheism to polytheism than the reverse.
> Even
> when a single good god is posited, it's easy to specify a
> counter-deity.
> This suggests that the cleaning up of Mesopotamiam legends to
> preach
> monotheism is more likely that its counter.
>
> It's obvious that there are parallels, but what evidence beyond
> your
> steadfast belief is there that the Mesopotamians derived their
> legends
> from the Adamites? that there was a transmission of souls/morals to
> those
> who did not have them? There are certainly indications of worship
> that
> are much earlier than to time of the creation of Adam.
> Dave (ASA)
>
> On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 16:39:42 -0400 "Dick Fischer"
> <dickfischer@verizon.net> writes:
> > Hi George:
> >
> > His comment was that a historical Adam "rejects scientific
> > concordism."
> >
> > Only if a specially-created, Neolithic man was offered up as the
> > first
> > biological human being on earth from whom all mankind descended
> > would it
> > reject scientific concordism. Genesis makes no such claim. If
> > ignorant
> > readers wish to impress upon the text what isn't there then call
> out
> > the
> > ignorant readers. Don't beat up on the author(s) and say that
> what
> > they
> > wrote wasn't truthful.
> >
> > The city Cain built is listed on the Sumerian King List in the
> > post-flood
> > era. Are we to suppose that someone other than Cain built it?
> Who?
> > And
> > Cain is only one generation removed from Adam. Perhaps Cain was
> the
> > one
> > created and he had no father. Maybe we should just rewrite
> Genesis
> > altogether.
> >
> > Bottom line - it matters little how much research he has done.
> His
> > conclusion was wrong. To be fair, both of our books were probably
>
> > in press
> > at the same time. That was then, however, this is now.
> >
> > Dick Fischer, author, lecturer
> > Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham
> > www.historicalgenesis.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gmurphy10@neo.rr.com [mailto:gmurphy10@neo.rr.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 11:33 AM
> > To: 'Douglas Hayworth'; Dick Fischer
> > Cc: ASA
> > Subject: RE: [asa] Interview with Denis Lamoureux
> >
> > It's hardly accurate to say that Denis has not done "any relevant
>
> > research."
> > I realize that the research you consider relevant is study of ANE
>
> > history &
> > I don't deny the significance of that for understanding scripture.
>
> > But I
> > don't think you have given adequate attention to the extremely
> > "relevant"
> > question of whether early Genesis is the type of literature that
> > should be
> > read as history. Denis has done considerable research in that
> area.
> >
> > Shalom,
> > George
> >
> > ---- Dick Fischer <dickfischer@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > Hi Douglas:
> > >
> > > It's precisely this comment that riles me: "EC by definition
> > rejects a
> > > historical Adam, because this view of origins rejects scientific
> > > concordism."
> > >
> > > Adam is only one of the Genesis patriarchs listed in Abraham's
> > line of
> > > ancestry. Since Denis eliminates Adam as a human being who once
>
> > breathed
> > > air I would be curious as to how many other patriarchs EC would
>
> > eliminate.
> > > Assuming Abraham was a real person at what point would Denis
> > propose that
> > > mythological forebears gave birth to live human beings.
> > >
> > > Also, since I spent 27 years of my life searching for evidence
> > that
> > supports
> > > the historicity of Genesis 2-11, naturally I am somewhat miffed
> by
> > one who
> > > rejects Genesis historicity out of hand without doing any
> relevant
> > research.
> > >
> > > Biological evolution looks to be on solid ground because we have
>
> > an
> > > abundance of data and evidence to confirm it. The central theme
>
> > of
> > > Christianity has support with biblical and historical evidence
> > which
> > upholds
> > > it. And the historicity of the Genesis patriarchs likewise has
>
> > evidence
> > in
> > > support. On the flip side, there is an absence of evidence
> that
> > biological
> > > evolution is untrue or that Jesus Christ had no ministry or that
>
> > Adam
> > didn't
> > > live. So what I would suggest is that we support the things,
> all
> > things,
> > > for which we have we have a database of supporting evidence and
>
> > avoid
> > > signing on to things for which there is no evidence in support -
>
> > such as
> > the
> > > historicity of Adam, for example.
> > >
> > > Perhaps Douglas you'd be so kind to as to take a glance at what
>
> > I've
> > written
> > > and conduct a similar interview?
> > >
> > > Dick Fischer, author, lecturer
> > > Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham
> > > www.historicalgenesis.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> > [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> > > Behalf Of Douglas Hayworth
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 9:06 PM
> > > To: AmericanScientificAffiliation
> > > Subject: [asa] Interview with Denis Lamoureux
> > >
> > > Hi Everyone,
> > >
> > > If you're interested in Denis Lamoureux's views and his book
> > > Evolutionary Creation, you may be interested in reading an
> > interview
> > > that I did with him for my blog Becoming Creation
> > > (http://becomingcreation.org). I invite you to leave comments
> and
> > > questions (no long rants, please).
> > >
> > > I don't join the conversations very often here on the ASA list
> --
> > I'm
> > > always amazed at how much some of you are able to write! You're
>
> > all
> > > either very fast keyboarders or you've got a lot more time on
> your
> > > hands than I do -- but I do lurk and follow most threads. I'm
> > > especially interested in the discussions about education,
> > especially
> > > those relating to homeschooling. I mention this because I plan
> on
> > > devoting most of my blogging efforts in the coming months to
> > > developing content (short essays, etc.) for homeschooling
> students
> > and
> > > parents. If you are interested in that topic, please add
> Becoming
> > > Creation to your RSS-feed and comment to provide corrections or
> > > suggestions for improvement.
> > >
> > > Doug Hayworth
> > > ASA member
> > > Rockford, IL
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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> >
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Received on Sun Jun 7 19:22:18 2009

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