Re: [asa] Origins of Life

From: Schwarzwald <schwarzwald@gmail.com>
Date: Fri Jun 05 2009 - 12:07:47 EDT

Heya Gregory,

While I'm in general agreement on your criticisms of MN, I have to ask -
what do you mean when you say a 'naturalistic origin of life' is heresy? I
would absolutely agree that an account of "Well, it just happened randomly
with absolutely no direction or guidance" would be heresy. I'd also say that
such a "theory" goes far beyond the bounds of science. But the idea that
life could spring from non-life under the direction of an intelligent agent
is, though stated generically, pretty "orthodox" from my point of view.

I think one of the biggest problems in these discussions is the idea that
the work of God and outcomes of nature are always going to look utterly
distinct from each other. While it would be nice if we could make such
things so simple, it strikes me as a terrible mistake - and one which the
science/religion dialogue is going to freeze at until we get past it.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 3:56 AM, Gregory Arago <gregoryarago@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> If you,ll forgive this short post to a rather large thread topic, I find it
> hard to picture why Christians have become apologists for a <philosophical
> assumption> about <science> that promotes a warfare model in the academy.
> Granted its not the warfare model that you,re used to discussing.
> Nevertheless, promoting MN = science is akin to dividing and fragmenting the
> Academy, using philosophy to do it.
>
> The idea that MN <permits science to be done> is quite absurd unless one is
> using such a narrow view of <science> as to even contradict the Mission
> Statements of ASA, which welcome scientific disciplines that study
> <non-natural> things as well. I know that many people here are in denial of
> this, but that doesn,t make it any less true. Randy,s definition of
> <natural> would support the idea that <rape is natural>, <murder is natural>
> and <deceit is natural>. Of course, many pretty things are <natural> too!
>
> One needn,t accept the philosophical assumption of MN under authoritarian
> conditions; one would be better to challenge the obvious display of <MNism =
> scientism> under the disguise of a <nature only> perspective.
>
> Dave Siemens Jr. wrote: <To make methodological naturalism into a
> metaphysical dogma requires the claim that the only source of knowledge is
> science, that is, scientism. There is no member of ASA who adopts
> scientism.>
>
> On the contrary, Dave, there are surprisingly *many* on the ASA list who
> adopt <scientism>. But it depends of course on how one defines <scientism>.
> If one defines <scientism> as follows, then there are many on this list who
> accept it: <scientism is the ideology that preferences scientific
> explanations over other knowledge claims, under the guise that ,science
> knows best, or ,science works,>. But then again, this is an Association that
> focusses on <science> rather than on <philosophy> or <art>, for example, so
> it rather makes sense that members of ASA would <privilege> science,s
> explanatory power above that of philosophy or art. And then if we would have
> <music> come into play, those who are ideologically <scientistic> at
> ASA could reduce music to mathematics too!
>
> Where are the holistic thinkers?
>
> With respect to <the inherently gradual character of any such transition,
> no matter how life is defined>, Randy, would you be able to back that up
> with anything but personal rhetoric? I could name you many,
> many non-gradualistic examples of <development>, <growth> or <change>. But
> would you likely dismiss them all as <anomalies> that are <designed> simply
> to contradict your philosophical assumptions. Or would you rather face them
> on their own terms, and thus enter the philosophical arena? I don,t find
> your logic very convincing; i.e. that <life> could <gradually> come (fancy
> word: <emerge>) from <non-life> without the imput of intelligence or
> Intelligence.
>
> And Jonas' <The Phenomenon of Life> is really quite a read on this (though
> I didn,t finish it and only have parts of it with me here in Russia).
>
> The idea of a <naturalistic> <origin of life> is a simple heresy in any of
> the three Branches of Christendom. Why Christian naturalists, even the ExDir
> of ASA, would be arguing to <prove> a <naturalistic origin> (e.g life from
> non-life) is difficult to fathom (or maybe he is not promoting this, and I
> have misunderstood him?). The power of evolutionistic ideology must run
> stronger than I could have imagined in American <science and religion>
> discourse in order for this situation to have arisen.
>
> Gregory
>
> --- On *Fri, 6/5/09, dfsiemensjr <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: dfsiemensjr <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [asa] Origins of Life
> To: randyisaac@comcast.net, asa@calvin.edu
> Received: Friday, June 5, 2009, 7:17 AM
>
> Randy,
> I heartily second your post. Cameron seems to be making the silly mistake
> of confusing technique with metaphysics. Methodological naturalism merely
> specifies that science of any sort requires testing against observation,
> whether directly or indirectly. Galileo rolling balls was an example of
> direct testing against repeatable observations. It is no longer that simple
> in physics, and has been less so in biology and any science that involves
> persons. But at least the theoretical possibility of empirical testing is
> necessary. To make methodological naturalism into a metaphysical dogma
> requires the claim that the only source of knowledge is science, that is,
> scientism. There is no member of ASA who adopts scientism.
>
> Methodological naturalism gives confirmation or falsification to scientific
> claims. It cannot touch metaphysical claims, which cannot be tested
> empirically except in rare cases. I think of Schopenhauer's pessimism, which
> claims that the negative experiences mount up inexorably, whereas the
> demonstrable fact is that negative experiences are forgotten more readily
> than positive ones. Those few who collect nothing but the negative will
> probably be classed as mentally ill.
>
> In general, the only test available for metaphysical claims is consistency.
> The limitations of consistency are evident in the several mutually
> contradictory geometries or the infinite variety of modular arithmetics.
> Although I think Cameron will object, materialism is one of the metaphysical
> views that can be logically consistent. It has its problems, for no
> metaphysics completely explains or has place for everything. Eventually one
> is forced back to the primary assumptions. Those of materialism are not
> compatible with Cameron's primary assumptions, nor with mine. That, as a
> Christian, I put unconditional faith in my assumptions, does not prove them
> right. But I must live by faith. I have to recognize that not all understand
> this. I recall a professor of mine, a committed Kantian, who insisted that
> he had no assumptions, but was just seeing things as they are. He could not
> understand why his students did not see it as he, being right, did.
>
> Do I see design in the universe? Yes, by faith. Do I see guidance of the
> development of the earth and its inhabitants? Yes, by faith. Are these
> matters that involve the methodology of science? No! I have to recognize a
> similar distinction when I thank God for my food while also recognizing the
> need for farmers, truckers, millers, bakers and a host of other workers.
> Theological matters and practical ones are neither contradictory nor
> mutually cancelling.
> Dave (ASA)
>
> On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 21:51:20 -0400 "Randy Isaac" <randyisaac@comcast.net<http://ca.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=randyisaac@comcast.net>>
> writes:
>
> Cameron,
> I think you offer an excellent example of confusion between
> methodological naturalism and metaphysical assumptions. He discussed at
> some length the impact of various philosophical perspectives at the very
> beginning. The net of the discussion was that the underlying assumption is
> the methodological naturalism (though he didn't use the term itself) that
> permits science to be done. Hazen says very simply that if life arose
> from non-life in a way that science can detect, then this is how it would
> have had to happen and how science should approach it. And that if it is
> sufficiently probable, then it has likely happened more than once in this
> universe.
> No, I simply do not agree with you about your design comment. As I've
> stated to you over and over again, science does not and cannot detect design
> in the abstract from an unknown agent with unknown methodologies. This is
> not science in a "narrow" sense but in the only way in which it can work. It
> is not a metaphysical assumption but a good understanding of what science
> can and cannot do.
> As for the definition of life, I didn't begin to do justice to Hazen's
> lengthy discussion of the views of scientists, theologians, and philosophers
> of the definition of life. He cited only some of the 48 that he had studied
> but he did discuss the pro's and con's of several. I assume there is more in
> his book. And, yes, that definition should be without reference to
> metaphysical design as long as one is talking about the science of the
> origin of life rather than the metaphysical meaning of the origin of life.
> My point was primarily to emphasize the inherently gradual character of
> any such transition, no matter how life is defined.
>
> Randy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Cameron Wybrow<http://ca.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wybrowc@sympatico.ca>
> *To:* asa@calvin.edu<http://ca.mc524.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=asa@calvin.edu>
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 04, 2009 5:35 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Origins of Life
>
> I can't help but note the metaphysical assumptions made in the quoted
> passage.
>
> "I believe that any attempt to formulate an absolute definition of life,
> any definition that makes a sharp distinction between life and non-life,
> must represent a similar false dichotomy. Here's why I say that, I think
> it's obvious that the first living cell did not just appear fully formed,
> with all its chemical complexity and genetic machinery intact. Rather, I
> suspect that life must have arisen through a step-wise sequence of emergent
> events. I see life's origin as a process of increasing chemical complexity."
>
> The writer thinks that it is wrong to make "a sharp distinction between
> life and non-life", and gives, as a reason for this, the statement that "the
> first living cell did not just appear fully formed", a statement which he
> terms "obvious".
>
> Metaphysical assumption #1: That the question whether there is a sharp
> distinction between life and non-life -- what philosophers would call a
> metaphysical or ontological question -- can be settled by an appeal to the
> historical process by which life first arose. The assumption is then that
> in order to understand the essence of a thing -- in this case, the essence
> that separates life from non-life -- we must understand its origin or
> genesis. This is an assumption typical of modern thought, which is
> radically historical and tends to reduce all questions of essence to
> questions of origin. That it is not necessary for biology to understand the
> origin of life in order to correctly characterize life and distinguish it
> from non-life is shown by works such as Hans Jonas's *The Phenomenon of
> Life*.
>
> The writer also suspects that life "must have arisen" through a process of
> chemical evolution. But the "must have" is only justified if a designed
> origin of life is ruled out. Otherwise, it is possible that the first cell
> arose through a process of guided assembly.
>
> Metaphysical assumption #2: The origin of life can and should be explained
> without reference to design.
>
> Needless to say, "science", in the narrow sense of the word that ID's
> critics employ, cannot justify either of these metaphysical assumptions.
> And if they are false assumptions, then biologists who work under their
> influence will be led to false conclusions.
>
> Note that I am not arguing that chemical origin-of-life scenarios are
> false. I am merely pointing out that the above passage makes metaphysical
> assumptions in arguing for such scenarios. These should be honestly
> admitted, and not passed off as cool, dispassionate, "objective" science.
> It would be more intellectually scrupulous to say: "*If* we are to explain
> the origin of life without appeal to any notion of design or planning, and
> *if* we are to rule out the hypothesis of a freak sudden origin, *then* we
> must *assume* that it arose through a gradual increase in chemical
> complexity." Thus, "gradual increase in chemical complexity" would be seen
> for what it truly is, i.e., not a scientific hypothesis proper -- all proper
> scientific hypotheses can at least conceivably be disproved -- but an
> undemonstrated assumption which the origin-of-life scientists have taken as
> the basis for their research program.
>
> Cameron.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Received on Fri Jun 5 12:08:08 2009

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