Re: [asa] BioLogos - Bad Theology?

From: Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com>
Date: Fri May 22 2009 - 08:24:02 EDT

Hi Cameron,

"I, too, believe that sometimes we know things are true, but cannot prove
them. However, I can't see that it has any bearing on my argument. I am
not talking about whether or not God can be known to exist in the private
heart of the believer. I am talking about competing public claims about the
structure of reality." I don't believe that Christianity -- at least, as it
has historically understood itself -- is merely a private understanding of
the heart."

I agree. But we are told that public claims *must* be supported by
"evidence" or proof. And many believe that science is the number one
authority on all public claims. I just don't think public clams about
Christianity entail a denial of "Darwinism" nor is science the authority on
such claims.

"I think it makes public claims about the world, about nature and
history and about how God interacts with both. And I think that Darwinism
makes public claims about the world, e.g., about the complete absence of
intelligence at any point in the evolutionary process. This claim is
compatible only with either an absentee God -- who throws matter out into
space indifferently, and sits back and lets its movements of chance and
necessity surprise him, without caring whether or not the earth or man will
ever be produced -- or with no God. Thus, I think that these two claims,
the Christian and the Darwinian, are logically and metaphysically
incompatible, and that if one of them is true, the other is false. That's
why Darwinism -- pure Darwinism, not Darwinism tamed and compromised by
Christian sentiments or doctrines -- is a threat to Christian faith."

I'm sorry, but this argument strikes me as being arbitrary. I have already
explained many times that the same argument can be made using genetics
rather than evolution. For example, "about the complete absence of
intelligence at any point in the evolutionary process" easily becomes "about
the complete absence of intelligence at any point in the fertilization
process." And the rest could stay the same.

Second, it is not true that the Darwinian claim "is compatible only with
either an absentee God -- who throws matter out into space indifferently,
and sits back and lets its movements of chance and necessity surprise him,
without caring whether or not the earth or man will ever be produced -- or
with no God." I have just outlined a view where God is not surprised one
bit by chance and necessity and does indeed care whether man is produced.
In fact, He cares so much that He cares whether Mike, Ted, or Cameron is
produced. This reality exists because of us and chance was/is no obstacle
or lead curtain to our omnipotent Creator.

I should point out that I am one who has long challenged the perception of a
complete absence of intelligence at any point in the evolutionary process.
It's easily challenged because that is what it is - a perception. But even
if the perception is true, it still poses no fundamental challenge to the
truth of Christianity. That's how I see it.

-Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cameron Wybrow" <wybrowc@sympatico.ca>
To: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 3:21 AM
Subject: Re: [asa] BioLogos - Bad Theology?

> Mike:
>
> I think I can make this one much shorter.
>
> I agree with this paragraph:
>
>> The way I see it, we have all been deeply shaped by a culture that places
>> great value on reason and science. What we claim to "know" we should be
>> able to prove or support with evidence. And I understand the value of
>> that approach. But as I have aged, I have come to know that you can take
>> that approach too far. Y'see, I am the type of person who pays attention
>> to the little things, the subtle things. I collect such knowledge. And I
>> know many things, about myself, others, my surroundings, that I cannot
>> prove or support with strong evidence. In other words, I know things and
>> I know I can not get others to see what I know. I know that you can
>> know
>> without proof or evidence. And I know it would be folly to jettison that
>> knowledge because I could not prove it to another person.
>
> I, too, believe that sometimes we know things are true, but cannot prove
> them. However, I can't see that it has any bearing on my argument. I am
> not talking about whether or not God can be known to exist in the private
> heart of the believer. I am talking about competing public claims about
> the
> structure of reality. I don't believe that Christianity -- at least, as
> it
> has historically understood itself -- is merely a private understanding of
> the heart. I think it makes public claims about the world, about nature
> and
> history and about how God interacts with both. And I think that Darwinism
> makes public claims about the world, e.g., about the complete absence of
> intelligence at any point in the evolutionary process. This claim is
> compatible only with either an absentee God -- who throws matter out into
> space indifferently, and sits back and lets its movements of chance and
> necessity surprise him, without caring whether or not the earth or man
> will
> ever be produced -- or with no God. Thus, I think that these two claims,
> the Christian and the Darwinian, are logically and metaphysically
> incompatible, and that if one of them is true, the other is false. That's
> why Darwinism -- pure Darwinism, not Darwinism tamed and compromised by
> Christian sentiments or doctrines -- is a threat to Christian faith.
> That's
> why, if the public ever truly believes that pure, unadulterated Darwinism
> is
> "true" -- as true as Newtonian physics or the germ theory of disease or
> the
> periodic table of the elements -- the public will stop believing in the
> Christian God (and the Jewish God and the Muslim God).
>
> To confirm my general reasoning, I cite as empirical evidence the surveys
> which show that the specialists in evolutionary biology, the ones who most
> fervently believe that pure Darwinism is "true" in the sense given, have a
> 90-95% agnostic/atheistic score, higher than other biologists or than any
> other group of scientists, and higher by far than the general public,
> which
> is widely skeptical of the pure Darwinism that the evolutionary biologists
> espouse.
>
> [Note: I take it for granted, Mike, that you are aware, from my past
> posts,
> that by "Darwinism" I mean something much narrower than "evolution", and
> that I don't find "evolution" a threat to theistic or Christian belief at
> all.]
>
> Now, if you say that you have an inner certitude about Christianity, I do
> not challenge you. I am not denying that people can have inner certitude,
> nor am I trying to psychoanalyze your certitude away. But your inner
> certitude does not address our disagreement, because our disagreement is
> logical or metaphysical, not spiritual or psychological. I am saying that
> the God of whose existence you are certain is logically incompatible with
> pure Darwinism as the means of creation. You do not agree with me that
> the
> two are logically incompatible. Possibly you have not grasped the force
> of
> my argument; on the other hand, possibly my argument is invalid. But that
> is the disagreement between us. And I don't see how we can get any
> further
> on it, because (a) I don't think that you have really addressed my
> argument
> in rigorous detail; and (b) I don't think I can improve my argument any
> further, at least not at this point, so I am unlikely to be able to
> persuade
> you by writing any more. So I will have to drop this thread for now.
>
> The good news is that, on everything except the incompatibility of
> Darwinism
> and Christian creation doctrine, we appear to agree. We agree that the
> exact means by which God created the world is unknown, that it is not set
> forth in stone by Christian theology, and that it should be a question for
> friendly joint speculation, not an issue over which Christians should be
> angrily divided. And, though I have not read your book yet, based on what
> you have said about it, I think we agree that design in nature may be
> detectable and that belief in design detectability is not banned by
> Christian faith or Christian orthodoxy.
>
> Cameron.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nucacids" <nucacids@wowway.com>
> To: "Cameron Wybrow" <wybrowc@sympatico.ca>; <asa@lists.calvin.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 12:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [asa] BioLogos - Bad Theology?
>
>
>> Hi Cameron,
>>
>>
>>
>> I thank you for taking the time to understand my views and recognizing
>> that I am not proposing the way things ARE. I'm simply pointing out why
>> the Gould/Dawkins view of reality would, if shown to be valid, not cause
>> me to abandon my faith.
>>
>>
>>
>> You wrote,
>>
>>
>>
>> "It seems to me that the neo-Darwinian possibility you are propounding
>> here
>> (and again, I recognize that you aren't affirming it dogmatically, but
>> merely allowing it as a possibility) is profoundly schizophrenic. With
>> the
>> "reason" or "science" side of our minds and souls, we acknowledge the
>> universe, including life and mind, as the product entirely of chance and
>> necessity. With the "faith" side of our minds or souls, we look at the
>> same
>> universe and see its accidents and necessities as meaningful and
>> purposive.
>> It is almost as if by some strange act of will we can make the
>> purposeless
>> purposeful, the meaningless meaningful, the undirected directed. It is
>> this
>> schizophrenic side of TE -- *not* the quantum-direction notion put
>> forward
>> by Ted, George and Robert Russell -- that ID people, YEC people, OEC
>> people,
>> and many other Christians find repugnant."
>>
>>
>>
>> That may be, but then such Christians need to contemplate two facts of
>> their life.
>>
>>
>>
>> First, how did they come into existence? Most Christians (that I have
>> known, at least) believe that God brought them into existence. And when
>> they have children, they view the birth as a precious gift from God.
>> Even
>> secularists, shaped by the memories of our Christian culture, often speak
>> of the "miracle of birth." Yet the "reason" or "science" side of our
>> minds and souls tells us it is chance. "God gave us a beautiful little
>> girl!" is also "The sperm that impregnated the egg happened to have an X
>> chromosome in it."
>>
>>
>>
>> Second, many Christians will speak openly, at least among themselves,
>> about answered prayer. I myself have experienced some of the most
>> remarkable examples of answered prayer, to the point that it has given me
>> goose bumps. I store them in my heart, just as Mary stored stories about
>> her son Jesus in her heart. But the "reason" or "science" side of my
>> mind
>> and soul knows it "could have been" weird coincidence, and if I shared my
>> stories with atheists, they would certainly view it as such and there is
>> nothing in reason/science that would help me convince them otherwise.
>>
>>
>>
>> The way I see it, we have all been deeply shaped by a culture that places
>> great value on reason and science. What we claim to "know" we should be
>> able to prove or support with evidence. And I understand the value of
>> that approach. But as I have aged, I have come to know that you can take
>> that approach too far. Y'see, I am the type of person who pays attention
>> to the little things, the subtle things. I collect such knowledge. And I
>> know many things, about myself, others, my surroundings, that I cannot
>> prove or support with strong evidence. In other words, I know things and
>> I know I can not get others to see what I know. I know that you can
>> know
>> without proof or evidence. And I know it would be folly to jettison that
>> knowledge because I could not prove it to another person.
>>
>>
>>
>> But what I don't know is if I am making any sense here.
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps I should put it this way. They often say, "It's not what you
>> know; it's what you can prove." But a world that is based solely on what
>> can be proven is an illusionary world. Illusionary because it is
>> incomplete and where incompleteness is often mistaken for completeness.
>> After all, one example of such a world is our multi-media world of
>> politics.
>>
>>
>>
>> So it may seem absurd to embrace God as our Creator while agreeing with
>> Gould about evolution. But I find it absurd to deny God as our Creator
>> because of Gould's views on evolution. Why? Because I find it absurd to
>> think that human reason can sit in such judgment.
>>
>> And
>>
>> I know God exists.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Mike
>
>
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