Re: [asa] a creationist on the hiddenness of God

From: Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com>
Date: Thu May 07 2009 - 21:22:31 EDT

"As will surprise no one, I think the fundamental reason for such a view is
that the God we're talking about is the one revealed most profoundly in the
event of the cross - i.e.,
paradoxically where God is most hidden. (Some will ask, "What about the
resurrection?" As I said in a recent post, a theology of the cross includes
the resurrection of the crucified one. But the resurrection was not a
public event, the kind of phenomenon open to observation by everyone - cf.
Jn.14:19.)"

I think this is a very important point. The risen Lord did not appear
before Pilate or the Sanhedrin. He could have. He didn't.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "George Murphy" <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>
To: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>; <asa@lists.calvin.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] a creationist on the hiddenness of God

>A couple of comments:
>
> Bernie is right - what "careful observers" see is not God's "hand" but the
> "tools" wielded by that hand. This is why I've emphasized that faith (in
> a
> deeper sense than just believing in invisible agents) has to be a
> component
> of an adequate theology of divine action.
>
> On Ted's discussion: People may have varying reasons for thinking that
> God's action is generally hidden. As will surprise no one, I think the
> fundamental reason for such a view is that the God we're talking about is
> the one revealed most profoundly in the event of the cross - i.e.,
> paradoxically where God is most hidden. (Some will ask, "What about the
> resurrection?" As I said in a recent post, a theology of the cross
> includes
> the resurrection of the crucified one. But the resurrection was not a
> public event, the kind of phenomenon open to observation by everyone - cf.
> Jn.14:19.)
>
> Shalom
> George
> http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> To: <asa@lists.calvin.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:27 PM
> Subject: RE: [asa] a creationist on the hiddenness of God
>
>
>>I think the following is a fallacy:
>> "Only careful observers see His hand."
>>
>> Scientists are painfully "careful observers." If anyone could "carefully
>> observe" it should be scientists. If God's workings are imperceptible, I
>> don't think it is because of the fault of the observer. Also- if it only
>> took a "careful observation" to see God at work, then that perception
>> could be then shown to others once it is discovered-- so where is it?
>> That's what DI ID'ers are trying to do (explain God's hand at work
>> through
>> Intelligent Design because life as we know it is impossible to happen
>> naturally), but they don't seem to have a compelling "careful
>> observation"
>> to peddle.
>>
>> ...Bernie
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
>> Behalf Of Ted Davis
>> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 11:27 AM
>> To: asa@lists.calvin.edu
>> Subject: [asa] a creationist on the hiddenness of God
>>
>> Cameron Wybrow has been encouraging us to talk about a kenotic view of
>> creation and God "hiding himself", in connection with TE and ID. While
>> browsing in the college library this afternoon, I found a very curious
>> little book by Gorman Gray, a retired engineer, called "The Age of the
>> Universe: What Are the Biblical Limits?" Information is at
>> http://www.ageoftheuniverse.com/Welcome.html
>>
>> Mr Gray is an advocate of a universe with "undefined age," but a recent
>> biosphere (no more than 6000 years ago or 7500 years ago if the
>> Septuagint
>> is used). I encountered a similar view once, when a Brazilian teacher
>> told
>> me about it. Actually the famous YEC George McCready Price admitted this
>> possibility at one point. As a say, a curious little book.
>>
>> My point in mentioning it here is that I found the opening paragraph of
>> the
>> preface to be interesting in connection with the theme of this thread. I
>> quote as follows. Remember, the author is a creationist, if not
>> technically
>> a YEC then almost a YEC but absolutely not a TE.
>>
>> "We are compelled to believe in a God who is above His creation and who
>> can
>> intervene supernaturally whenever, wherever and however He pleases. Most
>> of
>> His interventions today are quiet. So quiet, in fact, that some might
>> consider world events merely as natural forces producing their
>> predictable
>> physics. Only careful observers see His hand. We are dealing with a God
>> who silently 'hides himself' (Isaiah 45:15)."
>>
>> Wow.
>>
>> My only comment: those TEs who like the QDA view (quantum divine action)
>> are motivated by a similar concern. Contrary to what is often said or
>> implied, they are not denying that God sometimes work genuine miracles
>> (that
>> would in some cases go well beyond QDA) and they are not picking a view
>> to
>> retain academic prestige. Rather, they really believe that virtually all
>> divine activity is pretty subtle, while at the same time they want to
>> uphold
>> the orthodox belief in a God who acts--who acts all the time, all over
>> the
>> place.
>>
>> Whatever else we might say about that view, we need to keep this in mind.
>>
>> Ted
>>
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>
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Received on Thu May 7 21:22:48 2009

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