Re: [asa] a creationist on the hiddenness of God

From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <>
Date: Thu May 07 2009 - 16:02:40 EDT

It strikes me that the perception of God in the world is only through
grace. This gift may be rejected, leading in antiquity generally to
polytheism, as Paul notes, but also to animism, dualism, pantheism, etc.
Nowadays it seems to lead mostly to atheism. The ancients seemed to
recognize that they were subject to something beyond themselves. Now we
seem to think we are bright and knowledgeable enough to be
self-sufficient to control all of nature, assumed to be all there is.
Dave (ASA)

On Thu, 7 May 2009 12:27:04 -0700 "Dehler, Bernie"
<> writes:
> I think the following is a fallacy:
> "Only careful observers see His hand."
> Scientists are painfully "careful observers." If anyone could
> "carefully observe" it should be scientists. If God's workings are
> imperceptible, I don't think it is because of the fault of the
> observer. Also- if it only took a "careful observation" to see God
> at work, then that perception could be then shown to others once it
> is discovered-- so where is it? That's what DI ID'ers are trying to
> do (explain God's hand at work through Intelligent Design because
> life as we know it is impossible to happen naturally), but they
> don't seem to have a compelling "careful observation" to peddle.
> ...Bernie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: []
> On Behalf Of Ted Davis
> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 11:27 AM
> To:
> Subject: [asa] a creationist on the hiddenness of God
> Cameron Wybrow has been encouraging us to talk about a kenotic view
> of
> creation and God "hiding himself", in connection with TE and ID.
> While
> browsing in the college library this afternoon, I found a very
> curious
> little book by Gorman Gray, a retired engineer, called "The Age of
> the
> Universe: What Are the Biblical Limits?" Information is at
> Mr Gray is an advocate of a universe with "undefined age," but a
> recent
> biosphere (no more than 6000 years ago or 7500 years ago if the
> Septuagint
> is used). I encountered a similar view once, when a Brazilian
> teacher told
> me about it. Actually the famous YEC George McCready Price admitted
> this
> possibility at one point. As a say, a curious little book.
> My point in mentioning it here is that I found the opening paragraph
> of the
> preface to be interesting in connection with the theme of this
> thread. I
> quote as follows. Remember, the author is a creationist, if not
> technically
> a YEC then almost a YEC but absolutely not a TE.
> "We are compelled to believe in a God who is above His creation and
> who can
> intervene supernaturally whenever, wherever and however He pleases.
> Most of
> His interventions today are quiet. So quiet, in fact, that some
> might
> consider world events merely as natural forces producing their
> predictable
> physics. Only careful observers see His hand. We are dealing with
> a God
> who silently 'hides himself' (Isaiah 45:15)."
> Wow.
> My only comment: those TEs who like the QDA view (quantum divine
> action)
> are motivated by a similar concern. Contrary to what is often said
> or
> implied, they are not denying that God sometimes work genuine
> miracles (that
> would in some cases go well beyond QDA) and they are not picking a
> view to
> retain academic prestige. Rather, they really believe that
> virtually all
> divine activity is pretty subtle, while at the same time they want
> to uphold
> the orthodox belief in a God who acts--who acts all the time, all
> over the
> place.
> Whatever else we might say about that view, we need to keep this in
> mind.
> Ted
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Received on Thu May 7 16:08:42 2009

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