Re: [asa] No Adam?

From: <>
Date: Sat May 02 2009 - 00:49:02 EDT

 Bernie, I think the fall was real and happened somewhere along the course of human evolution. (My personal take is that the Fall was simply mankind becoming moral agents while not yet spiritually ready, and hence we were unable to overcome our biologically inherited selfishness and being no longer innocent it "killed" us.)  Given that the Fall was real and occurred in evolutionary history, I think it's quite acceptable for Jesus and the apostles to speak of an Adam as the symbol representing mankind, because they had real things to say about humanity's Fall and it was most easily communicated through the genre of myth.  Jesus referring to "Adam" is referring to the character in the story, much as if I said, "well, remember what Hamlet said...'"  I would not be asserting that Hamlet was a real individual, only that something spoken by the Hamlet-character was real truth worth repeating. 

Even if I was unaware that Hamlet was not a real individual (as perhaps the apostles did not know that "Adam" was not a real individual), it would not be wrong for me (or them) to speak that way, because it is not my intention to make assertions about "Hamlet" (or "Adam"), but it is my intention to assert some of the truths that his story presents.




-----Original Message-----
From: Murray Hogg <>
To: ASA <>
Sent: Fri, 1 May 2009 9:47 pm
Subject: Re: [asa] No Adam?

Hi Bernie, 

I'd be happy not to rehash20the debate - but I'm not happy to allow the following misrepresentation of my position to go without challenge; 

Dehler, Bernie wrote: 

> some, like Pastor Murray, disagree
> that the NT writers were convinced of an imminent return, or else
> re-define “imminent” from the common dictionary understanding. (Let’s
> not re-hash that.) 

Let me say without any ambiguity that throughout the debate on this subject I affirmed BOTH of the above AND that I continue to do so. 

And, to set the record straight, let me say that I continue to do so. I AFFIRM that the NT writers were convinced of an imminent return of Jesus, and I AFFIRM that "imminent" means "ready to take place/hanging over one's head" (as per the dictionary definition that Bernie himself gave). 

Sorry if that leaves you with a lingering confusion, Bernie - but there you are. 






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Received on Sat May 2 00:49:54 2009

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