RE: [asa] fall of Satan logic questions

From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Date: Fri May 01 2009 - 12:02:36 EDT

George said:
"I want to be clear that this figure of the angel of the LORD is a literary device, a way of speaking of a manifestation of the God of Israel. It does not refer to a separate divine person, the "unfleshed Logos.""

Just to be clear, George. When Bible commentaries say this could be the pre-incarnate Christ, you disagree, correct? If correct, do you think your opinion is counter to most theologians in evangelical Christianity? I've never heard your view before, but I've heard many times the view that it could be the pre-incarnate Christ (could be because of the circles I'm in).

Saying it is "just a literary device" makes sense. The pagans around that time probably all thought the gods came down and mingled with man... like even in the Bible with the Angels coming down and having kids with the beautiful women of Earth.

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: George Murphy [mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:49 AM
To: Dehler, Bernie; asa
Subject: Re: [asa] fall of Satan logic questions

I don't want to get deeply into a discussion of angels right now (for want
of time, not because the topic is of no interest). But folks discussing it
should be aware that the figure of "the angel of the LORD" in the OT is
often, if not always, a way of speaking about God. OT scholars may refer to
it as an "anti-anthropomorphism," a device to avoid having to refer directly
to God in human terms. Sometimes the equivalence is pretty obvious.
In.Ex.3:2 "the angel of the LORD" appears to Moses, but when Moses goes to
see, "the LORD saw that he had turned aside (v.4).

I want to be clear that this figure of the angel of the LORD is a literary
device, a way of speaking of a manifestation of the God of Israel. It does
not refer to a separate divine person, the "unfleshed Logos." There are at
best hints of the latter idea in the OT in, e.g., the personification of
Wisdom.

Shalom
George
http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dehler, Bernie" <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
To: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] fall of Satan logic questions

> There is a problem with saying Jesus had pre-incarnate manifestations as
> an Angel because Christ is supposed to be almighty God, not an angel
> (which is a created being). They are two different orders of being. Jesus
> had a human and God nature- are we to throw in a third angelic nature
> also?
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Merv Bitikofer [mailto:mrb22667@kansas.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 5:06 AM
> To: philtill@aol.com; asa; Dehler, Bernie
> Subject: Re: [asa] fall of Satan logic questions
>
> There is Daniel 10:13 where Michael is waylaid 21 days. Apparently
> angels can get "tied up" in this way too, so to speak. So God's
> messengers sometimes suffer delays just as human messengers. Try to
> incorporate that into your theology!
>
> --Merv
>
> philtill@aol.com wrote:
>> Another example of an angel with a sword (very similar to Numbers 22)
>> is in the plague at the time of David. David was given a view of the
>> angel doling out the plague, standing over Jerusalem holding a sword.
>> In that case, we know that the result of this "sword" was an illness
>> spread throughout a city, not a cut in an individual's flesh.
>> Apparently the vision of a sword was an anthropomorphism so that David
>> could understand the peril. I'd assume that most of what we read
>> about angels is anthropomorphism so we can understand things that we
>> otherwise couldn't. That's not to say it isn't real. I'd assume the
>> reality is more than the anthropomorphism can communicate.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gordon brown <Gordon.Brown@Colorado.EDU>
>> To: asa@calvin.edu
>> Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 5:21 pm
>> Subject: Re: [asa] fall of Satan logic questions (was:
>> ID/Miracles/Design (Behe vs. Behe))
>>
>> For more on angels and swords see Numbers 22 beginning at verse 22. I
>> am not prepared to present any conclusions from this.
>>
>> Gordon Brown (ASA member)
>>
>> On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, philtill@aol.com <mailto:philtill@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Angels can be "bound", so I have in my head an image more like
>> wrestling than sword-fighting.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com
>> <mailto:bernie.dehler@intel.com>>
>> > Cc: ASA <asa@calvin.edu <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>>
>> > Sent: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 3:47 pm
>> > Subject: RE: [asa] fall of Satan logic questions (was:
>> ID/Miracles/Design (Behe vs. Behe))
>> >
>>
>> >
>> > I was telling my kid (2nd grader) the other day about a war in
>> heaven with good
>> > vs. bad angels. Good angels kicked-out the bad ones. The bad ones,
>> led by
>> > Satan, wanted to take over.
>> >
>> > He had a good question I never thought about- can angels die?
>> >
>> > Theology says no- that's why hell was made for them. Forever tormented.
>> >
>> > But here we have a case of war with no death? What are they doing-
>> just shoving
>> > each other around? Do they have weapons, but these weapons can't
>> kill another?
>> > What's a war without death? Are they cutting off limbs? If Angels
>> don't have
>> > limbs (because they are spiritual and not material), are they just
>> being hurt in
>> > some way, but not completely dying?
>> >
>> > What does this have to do with ASA? It is a matter of trying to
>> apply logic to
>> > faith... does the Christian faith make sense about angel warfare and
>> the fall of
>> > Satan, using modern day logic?
>> >
>> > He asks a lot of interesting questions that somehow adults gloss
>> over (including
>> > myself). Maybe we jump too fast to the standard line "I don't know,
>> but one day
>> > we'll find out in heaven." Is that line a short-circuit for logic
>> and truthful
>> > understanding?
>> >
>> > ...Bernie
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Alexanian, Moorad [mailto:alexanian@uncw.edu
>> <mailto:alexanian@uncw.edu?>]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:36 PM
>> > To: Dehler, Bernie
>> > Cc: ASA
>> > Subject: RE: [asa] ID/Miracles/Design (Behe vs. Behe)
>> >
>> > Let us not forget the fall of Satan before that of man.
>> >
>> > Moorad
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu <mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu>
>> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
>> <mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu?>] On Behalf
>> > Of Dehler, Bernie
>> > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:32 PM
>> > Cc: ASA
>> > Subject: RE: [asa] ID/Miracles/Design (Behe vs. Behe)
>> >
>> > Dick said:
>> > "If good, functioning, workable "designs" are due to God's
>> handiwork, then
>> > who or what is responsible for the flaws, defects and failures? Give
>> > God all the responsibilty or none of it."
>> >
>> > Haminists (followers of Ken Ham and his interpretation) say that God
>> made it all
>> > good- but man's sin wrecked it. Before the fall, there were no
>> mosquitos, or
>> > they probably didn't drink blood back when they were first made,
>> just like the
>> > first lions, bears, etc. didn't eat other animals either (no animal
>> death before
>> > the fall, and all people were vegetarians until after the flood). So
>> God gets
>> > credit for good; man's sin is the reason for bad (or corruption of
>> the good
>> > design).
>> >
>> > ...Bernie
>> >
>> >
>> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu
>> <mailto:majordomo@calvin.edu> with
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu
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>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Received on Fri May 1 12:03:38 2009

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