From: Don Nield <d.nield@auckland.ac.nz>
Date: Thu Apr 30 2009 - 20:42:07 EDT

G'day Murray (and now the forum):
Yes, I think that we are on the same wavelength.
As I recall it, Werner Gitt had little to say. Certainly he had no
ready counter argument. I got the impression that what I was saying was
new to him -- a surprise to me because according to his biography he had
a background as a professional in information theory -- and a
reputation that was good enough (or vague enough) for our Department of
Chemical Engineering to run his talk as one of their seminars.They were
unaware of Gitt's YEC background.
Don

Murray Hogg wrote:
> Hi Don,
>
> I think I see where you're coming from on this - and it may help to
> "publish" my thinking to see if I did, indeed, get the point;
>
> If one was to find a stack of Gitt's books sitting on a table, it may
> well be thought that no information could be added or subtracted by
> increasing or decreasing the stack.
>
> However, if one thinks of the rotation of the books as representing
> binary data - "right side up" = 1, "up side down" = 0 - then it is
> possible to see how the stack itself is actually encoding data.
>
> So, to labour the point, if "right side up" is represented by ^ and
> "up side down" by v then the number 7 could be represented by four
> books stacked thus;
>
> v ^ ^ ^
> or 0 1 1 1
>
> In this case a duplication plus "mutation" (increasing the stack and a
> rotating one or more books) would most certainly create new
> information - eg;
>
> v ^ ^ ^ + v ^ V ^
> or 0 1 1 1 + 0 1 0 1
>
> Where the new "byte" is a duplicated version of the first with a
> mutated third bit (0 becomes 1). Right?
>
> I'm intrigued, by the way, to know if Werner Gitt got the point?
>
> Blessings,
> Murray
>
> Don Nield wrote:
>> Hi Bernie:
>> My example is just meant as an analogy. It provides a counter-example
>> to the claim of the YEC author Werner Gitt that new information
>> cannot be created without an intelligent source. It also provides a
>> simple analogy to explain why gene duplication on its own is not
>> enough -- it has to be accompanied by mutation in order that new
>> information is formed. I add that gene duplication is always subject
>> to error in copying, and that is what is meant by mutation here. Is
>> that clear?
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>>> Hi Don-
>>>
>>> Your example doesn't make sense to me. I think in both cases, the
>>> two books do add information- but in either case, the information
>>> isn't useful.
>>>
>>> ...Bernie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Don Nield [mailto:d.nield@auckland.ac.nz] Sent: Friday, April
>>> 24, 2009 3:00 PM
>>> To: Dehler, Bernie
>>> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
>>> Subject: Re: [asa] ID/Miracles/Design
>>>
>>> Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>>>
>>>> Randy said:
>>>> "A process such as gene duplication, for example, increases the
>>>> amount of information in an organism without any external source."
>>>>
>>>> But gene duplication by itself is not adding useful information or
>>>> resulting in any beneficial improvements.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Don adds: Strictly speaking, Bernie is correct. But mutation
>>> inevitably accompanies gene duplication. I once had the opportunity
>>> to demonstrate this to Werner Gitt. I took two copies of his book
>>> 'In the Beginning was Information', placed them side by side, and
>>> said "No new information." Then I turned one of them upside down,
>>> and said "New information".
>>> Don
>>>
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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>>>
>>
>>
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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```--
Donald A. Nield
Associate Professor, Department of Engineering Science
University of Auckland
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Auckland 1142, NEW ZEALAND
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Received on Thu Apr 30 20:42:48 2009

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