Re: [asa] Natural Agents - Cause and Effect, Non-Natural Agents

From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <>
Date: Fri Apr 17 2009 - 14:42:14 EDT

Without the slanting, (1) is what I see Behe doing when he says that the
blood clotting mechanism cannot be attained through natural forces but
require divine (or superhuman) intervention. This applies equally to the
flagellum. That they do not specify the specific moment of that
intervention or the change wrought does not change the assumption.

(2) The mention of "metaphysical" makes this irrelevant to ID. Theists
are content to deal with metaphysical/theological explanations outside of

There is something left out in (3), namely that God's activity is
explicitly detectable scientifically. This requires them to falsely
identify metaphysical and methodological naturalism. It also demands that
God's activity can be controlled by scientists, at least to the extent
that geologists control the measurements of rocks and fossils.

It's easy to say, "This is just like ..." when the qualifications and
limitations are omitted. But ID is not id, nor TE or EC. Indeed, ID
officially denies theism when it is advantageous to do so.
Dave (ASA)

On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:47:27 -0400 "Cameron Wybrow"
<> writes: (in part)

It seems to me that the words “investigate divine action” require
clarification. These words might mean:
1. Attempt to catch God in the act of altering the normal course of
2. Study and theoretically expound the metaphysical and/or physical ways
and means of God’s interaction with the world of nature.
3. Draw an inference, based on the results seen in nature, that God has
In the works of intelligent design theory that I have read, I have never
seen examples of 1 or 2. Nor have I ever seen any indication that design
theorists even wish to engage in 1 or 2, as scientists at any rate. My
impression is that most design theorists would regard 1 as absurd, and
that all design theorists would regard 2 as an activity belonging to
theology, not science. Further, even regarding 3, design theorists (a)
regard the identification of the intelligent designer with God as an
extra-scientific supplement to the design inference proper, and (b) even
after such an identification is made, do not claim to detect the actual
divine action, but only its effects. In light of point (b), the phrase
“investigate divine action” is a bit of a stretch as a characterization
of ID theorizing.
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Received on Fri Apr 17 14:47:11 2009

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