Re: [asa] Noah's Ark- the debate over floods... and biblical interpretation

From: Kirk Bertsche <>
Date: Thu Apr 09 2009 - 16:50:58 EDT

This is a common assumption, especially by global-flood advocates.
But Gen 11 seems to imply the opposite; early man tended to stay
together (even after the Flood) until God forced mankind to spread out.


On Apr 9, 2009, at 8:30 AM, Dehler, Bernie wrote:

> Given human nature- I think it is impossible humans would stay in
> one area- they move all around. I don’t see how the numbers of any
> clan can be reduced to eight. Over the years they marry and move
> on. Look at the distance Abraham covered in his travels- and I
> don’t think that is so unusual for others in their day… as if
> Abraham is one of just a few people. Hundreds, thousands, or
> millions may have traveled like Abraham.
> …Bernie
> From: [mailto:asa-
>] On Behalf Of Dick Fischer
> Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 3:42 PM
> To: 'D. F. Siemens, Jr.'
> Cc: ASA
> Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's Ark- the debate over floods... and
> biblical interpretation
> Dear Dave:
> My last post of the day. Wooden cube-shaped baskets lashed
> together to make the overall dimensions, or an inflated figure in
> Genesis, or something else, you pick. The Sumerian king list
> describes repeated battles between the Sumerians and the
> Akkadians. The Akkadians (Adamites) were concentrated initially
> along the Euphrates River with the Sumerians located a little
> further east. The flood reduced the Akkadian population to eight,
> but the Sumerians survived in greater numbers as they rebuilt the
> cities formerly occupied by Akkadians.
> If your numbers are reduced to eight, and you are in potentially
> hostile territory, sneaking your way upriver to a safe location
> might seem like a good idea to you. Please remember, I didn’t
> write any of Genesis. And please save your incredulous remarks for
> the author(s) when you meet them. I think I have accumulated
> enough relevant knowledge to where I can shed a little light on
> some thorny issues, but there still remain a few items I do puzzle
> over just as you do.
> Dick Fischer, GPA president
> Genesis Proclaimed Association
> "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [mailto:asa-
>] On Behalf Of D. F. Siemens, Jr.
> Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 5:07 PM
> To:
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [asa] Noah's Ark- the debate over floods... and
> biblical interpretation
> Dick,
> You're doing great. Now we have a three-story basket, when the
> scripture says the ark was made of wood. You have 8 people punting
> up river, or possibly drawn by animals along the bank. But why are
> they headed for Ararat when they are next to land all the way? Have
> you thought of what it would be like to try to punt a string of
> baskets? I find matters more and more bizarre.
> Dave (ASA)
> On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:19:50 -0400 "Dick Fischer"
> <> writes:
> Hi David:
> The other night I saw part of the movie Hamlet. Although I found
> it interesting, I must admit I couldn’t understand over 20% of the
> dialogue. I perked up at “Alas, poor Yorick,” and “To be or not to
> be …”, but by and large I couldn’t pick up the lingo at all. We
> don’t talk that way anymore. Genesis is typical ANE literature.
> If you aren’t used to ANE literature from reading a boatload of it,
> you are going to miss some things. Then there is Jewish jargon to
> deal with, the odd scribal error, and the translation from one
> language to another. It’s a wonder to me any of it makes sense.
> What I find typical of ANE literature is that persons, places, and
> clashes between cities seem to be reliable. The insertion of
> various gods in the affairs of men is quite common and cannot be
> considered “true” history. So when the flood comes in Atrahasis we
> read “Enki made ready to speak, and said to Nintu the birth
> goddess: "You, birth goddess, creatress of destinies, establish
> death for all peoples!”
> (
> Okay, a fabricated conversation from one god or another in ANE
> literature is typical. So how about this conversation: And God
> said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let
> them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of
> the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over
> every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth” (Gen. 1:26).
> What makes this conversation genuine and the conversation in
> Atrahasis bogus? Simple. We all know there is only one God and we
> don’t believe in many gods. Plus the Bible is inspired.
> But the type of literature is the same. Insertions of
> conversations from God or gods are the norm in all ANE literature,
> Genesis included. So you accuse me of waffling? May I suggest
> that if you want to understand ANE literature, you should read some
> of it.
> Specifically to your questions, you wrote:
> >The Bible says that there was no help for him while you posit tens
> of thousands of people living in the valley, lots of women, with
> more elsewhere on earth.<
> There was no help mate “suitable.” There were not “tens of
> thousands” living in Eridu, more like a hundred or less at the
> beginning, and none of the other cities had been established at
> that early date. There is roughly 600 years between the first
> city, Eridu, and the city Cain built, Enoch, which was the second
> city. By 7,000 years ago the entire earth was sparsely populated
> in the millions. Read Jacquetta Hawkes, The Atlas of Early Man.
> > How does the notion that Noah simply stayed aboard the ark for
> two seasons work? I can imagine him stuck on a sand bar where there
> was at least an area of the ark from which he could drop a bucket
> to draw water for the creatures aboard. This would not help the
> food problem unless he could barter with the locals. But
> Mesopotamia has a distinct lack of wood. Would a mass of wood as
> big as the ark not be salvaged by the locals?<
> I’m not sure the voyage lasted a year. The Bible writer seemed to
> think so, and we are stuck trying to make sense of it. So I’m
> trying. The size of the ark is another problem area if we try to
> envisage the ark as a massive 450 foot long ship. A seriies of
> smaller baskets lashed together to form the overall dimensions
> might work, or maybe the writer mismeasured, or maybe the original
> dimensions have been changed. There are options. Choose.
> > Floods flow downstream, with increased speed as there is more
> water. If the ark were in the current, it would head for the
> Persian Gulf. If it got into an area where water overflowed the
> banks, the water would be ponding and going nowhere. So how did the
> ark head upstream to the area of Ararat? Or is this an inaccuracy
> that does not disturb the message?<
> If you remember the flood of 1993 in the midwest the water stayed
> for months before receding. The Gilgamesh legend mentions punting
> holes and punting is still a means of locomotion on the canals of
> Iraq. Animals on the bank pulling the boat also might work.
> There could be inaccuracies. I’m not saying there couldn’t
> possibly be inaccurracies in the inspired text. When Genesis
> depicts the God who created the entire univerrse taking a stroll
> through the Garden of Eden enjoying the coolness of the air and
> sniffing petunias, I, even I, have to put on my wading boots.
> Still, the flood appears to be a genuine event that actually
> happened. There are possible answers to the typical questions raised.
> Dick Fischer, GPA president
> Genesis Proclaimed Association
> "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
> ____________________________________________________________
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Received on Thu Apr 9 16:52:12 2009

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