Re: [asa] Yes -- the YECs are still winning

From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
Date: Mon Mar 30 2009 - 16:45:40 EDT

Yes, I was lied to. This was not by everyone, for some were ignorant and
misled. But when corrections are given and not heeded, it is a lie.
Dave (ASA)

On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:31:03 -0600 wjp <wjp@swcp.com> writes:
> Dave:
>
> Just curious. Do you really believe you were "lied" to?
> Do you believe YEC's are dishonest people, attempting to deceive?
> That would entail that they know the truth, but say something
> different.
>
> bill
>
> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:05:40 -0700, "D. F. Siemens, Jr."
> <dfsiemensjr@juno.com> wrote:
> > I was one at one time, until I discovered that I had been lied to.
> What
> > forced me to first change was discovering that radioactive dating
> could
> > not be off by much, and that the atomic bomb and other phenomena
> depended
> > on the same science as dating. An error in dating meant that
> Hiroshima
> > and Nagasaki couldn't have happened. I have read a good deal of
> the YEC
> > literature and discovered that the "authorities" advance
> incompatible
> > explanations for different phenomena at times, and at other times
> produce
> > "explanations" that are impossible. For example, the guy who was
> an
> > outstanding plant breeder (can't think of his name) said the
> reason there
> > were more tree rings in the bristle cone pines than years back to
> the
> > Flood was that some years produced more than one ring. Honest
> appraisal
> > recognized that the pines are more likely to skip rings on bad
> years,
> > fairly common under the extreme conditions of the area. The
> extension of
> > the tree ring data now requires that there be two rings most
> years. Tree
> > ring data in Europe goes back about 12Ky. But can you point to
> anything
> > in ICR or AiG or other YEC sites that recognizes this?
> >
> > George mentioned Oklo. Now comes RATE, placing almost all the
> energy from
> > radioactive disintegration into a couple days at the time of
> creation and
> > during the year of the Flood. This means that the temperature
> during the
> > Flood would vaporize the most refractive materials on earth, but
> it is
> > blandly stated that the temperature did not rise above 150 F.
> Should I
> > respect those who peddle impossibilities as Biblical truth?
> > Dave (ASA)
> >
> > On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 22:51:08 -0600 wjp <wjp@swcp.com> writes:
> >> Dave:
> >>
> >> Such a view would entail some very low opinion of the YEC as a
> >> person.
> >>
> >> I think it is very possible for us to be vastly mistaken and that
> >> God
> >> did not intend to mislead. Your view appears remarkably similar
> to
> >> Bertrand Russell in why he doesn't believe in God: To little
> >> evidence.
> >>
> >> Did God intend to mislead Bertrand Russell?
> >>
> >> bill
> >>
> >> On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:27:03 -0700, "D. F. Siemens, Jr."
> >> <dfsiemensjr@juno.com> wrote:
> >> > These are compatible provided you make one assumption, that God
> >> made the
> >> > creation to mislead those who are not of the elect. Most people
> do
> >> not
> >> > put the /Omphalos/ assumption quite this strongly, but the
> >> requirement of
> >> > your two points is that what we observe is intended to mislead.
> Of
> >> > course, the elect are only YEC. But their God is not the Truth.
> >> You need
> >> > to revise I John 3:19.
> >> > Dave (ASA)
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 20:09:17 -0600 wjp <wjp@swcp.com> writes:
> >> >> George:
> >> >>
> >> >> This is quite a strong statement. I take it that you believe
> it
> >> is
> >> >> impossible
> >> >> that the following two propositions could be true.
> >> >>
> >> >> 1) All that you (and others) regard as evidence for an ancient
> >> world
> >> >> obtains.
> >> >> 2) The world is young.
> >> >>
> >> >> Proposition (1) presumes the entire world of human experience
> as
> >> you
> >> >> take it
> >> >> to be and all the theories and instruments employed in the
> >> >> determination that
> >> >> such and such serves as evidence for an old world. By
> "evidence"
> >> I
> >> >> mean what
> >> >> Bridgman means: a meter reading. The world that obtains has
> >> these
> >> >> meter
> >> >> readings, these instruments, and theories. That is, what
> obtains
> >> is
> >> >> what we
> >> >> can "objectively" associate with a state of world and human
> >> >> understanding.
> >> >>
> >> >> Both propositions must come to some common understanding of
> "old"
> >> >> and "young,"
> >> >> that is, some standard of temporal measurement, although
> science
> >> >> lacks any
> >> >> absolute measure of time intervals.
> >> >>
> >> >> George, if this is what you believe, and I take it at least
> many
> >> on
> >> >> this list
> >> >> agree, then I begin to grasp the nature of the attitudes
> >> reflected
> >> >> on this list
> >> >> towards YEC.
> >> >>
> >> >> I certainly do not accept that the two propositions mentioned
> >> above
> >> >> are contraries.
> >> >> Indeed, I am amazed that anyone could believe so.
> >> >>
> >> >> But so it goes.
> >> >>
> >> >> bill powers
> >> >> White, SD
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 20:39:53 -0400, "George Murphy"
> >> >> <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com> wrote:
> >> >> > There is plenty of scientific evidence that the earth is old
> >> that
> >> >> is just
> >> >> > as compelling as the evidence for the age of distant stars.
> In
> >> >> addition,
> >> >> > a strict literal interepretation of Gen.1 places the
> creation
> >> of
> >> >> the stars
> >> >> > after that of the earth.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > There is no YEC view that is congruent with objective
> reality.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Shalom
> >> >> > George
> >> >> > http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> > From: David Clounch
> >> >> > To: Dehler, Bernie
> >> >> > Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> >> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:58 PM
> >> >> > Subject: Re: [asa] Yes -- the YECs are still winning
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So when you observe a supernova explosion at 90 million
> >> light
> >> >> years
> >> >> > away, that event didn't really happen because the universe
> is
> >> only
> >> >> a few
> >> >> > thousand years old.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > With this logic we could also all believe that
> everything
> >> was
> >> >> just
> >> >> > made 10 seconds ago- including the memories of all our past
> >> >> events, which
> >> >> > didn't really happen.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ,,,Bernie
> >> >> > Bernie,
> >> >> > I had not read this until now. You point out something I
> >> have
> >> >> been
> >> >> > thinking of for a long time. The YEC position can produce
> a
> >> >> quirky
> >> >> > phenomenology. The real problem with this phenomenology is
> it
> >> is
> >> >> also
> >> >> > FATAL to the concept of objective reality. If I were a YEC
> I
> >> >> would run
> >> >> > from this as fast as I could. Christianity and the very
> idea
> >> of
> >> >> truth
> >> >> > are both based on the idea of an objective reality. As is
> >> >> science.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > One must ask, is there a form of YEC that teaches that the
> >> earth
> >> >> is
> >> >> > young but the universe old? That seems to be the only
> chance
> >> YEC
> >> >> has of
> >> >> > being congruent with objective reality.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> >> >> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
> >> >> > On Behalf Of John Walley
> >> >> > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 6:13 AM
> >> >> > To: asa@calvin.edu; Randy Isaac
> >> >> > Subject: Re: [asa] Yes -- the YECs are still winning
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I think it is probably wise to leave the door open to
> >> >> "appearance of
> >> >> > age" YEC because at the end of the day we have to accept
> >> >> supernatural
> >> >> > intervention at some point anyway and we can't scientifically
> >> rule
> >> >> this
> >> >> > out. It is probably a good strategy to just draw the line on
> >> >> countering
> >> >> > and disproving false statements that are offered as
> scientific
> >> >> support of
> >> >> > these views. It is a free country and people can believe
> >> whatever
> >> >> myths or
> >> >> > fables they want as long as they don't try to represent it
> as
> >> >> science.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > But by this logic would ASA take issue with RTB
> statements
> >> >> that
> >> >> > newfound function for junk DNA and the function argument in
> >> >> general negate
> >> >> > the pseudogene evidence for common descent? Doesn't that
> fall
> >> >> afoul of the
> >> >> > criterion for integrity in science?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Ironically, this postion backs RTB into the corner of
> >> >> "appearance of
> >> >> > ancestry" just like the YECs appearance of age. They will
> admit
> >> it
> >> >> looks
> >> >> > that way but they appeal to a deceptive record of nature and
> a
> >> >> deceptive
> >> >> > Creator to avoid the obvious implications if the science. I
> >> >> concede they
> >> >> > should be allowed to believe that if they want but they
> >> shouldn't
> >> >> be
> >> >> > allowed to get away with saying science supports them in
> that
> >> >> without a
> >> >> > response. Does ASA officially address this anywhere?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Thanks
> >> >> >
> >> >> > John
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --- On Wed, 2/4/09, Randy Isaac <randyisaac@comcast.net>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > From: Randy Isaac <randyisaac@comcast.net>
> >> >> > > Subject: Re: [asa] Yes -- the YECs are still winning
> >> >> > > To: asa@calvin.edu
> >> >> > > Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 10:24 PM
> >> >> > > Bernie wrote:
> >> >> > > > But even the ASA doesn't have a position against
> >> >> > > YEC, so maybe it is true? ;-)
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > From PSCF June 2007 Vol. 59 No. 2 p. 143-146
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > "The ASA does not take a position on issues when there
> >> >> > > is honest disagreement among Christians provided there
> is
> >> >> > > adherence to our statement of faith and to integrity
> in
> >> >> > > science. Accordingly, the ASA neither endorses nor
> >> opposes
> >> >> > > young-earth creationism which recognizes the
> possibility
> >> of
> >> >> > > a recent creation with appearance of age or which
> >> >> > > acknowledges the unresolved discrepancy between
> >> scientific
> >> >> > > data and a young-earth position. However, claims that
> >> >> > > scientific data affirm a young earth do not meet the
> >> >> > > criterion of integrity in science. Any portrayal of
> the
> >> RATE
> >> >> > > project as confirming scientific support for a young
> >> earth
> >> >> > > contradicts the RATE project's own report. The ASA can
> > >> > > and does oppose such deception."
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu
> >> with
> >> >> > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the
> >> >> > > message.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
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> >> >> >
> >> >> >
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> >> >>
> >> >>
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> >> >>
> >> >>
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Received on Mon Mar 30 17:03:07 2009

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