RE: [asa] Yes -- the YECs are still winning

From: Alexanian, Moorad <alexanian@uncw.edu>
Date: Mon Mar 30 2009 - 08:59:43 EDT

I am sure one can think of all sorts of relies. For instance, if we conclude that a young earth "makes God a liar," what does that make us if the earth is indeed young? Just to through something in the mix.

Moorad

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Roberts
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:21 AM
To: wjp; D.F.Siemens@ame8.swcp.com
Cc: GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Yes -- the YECs are still winning

I am in considerable agreement with both Dave and George.

IF God created the universe with the appearance of age then as Charles
Kingsley said in 1858 to Gosse - that makes God a liar.

It is as simple as that.

Every sense study (science) of the earth and the universe points to a vast
age and the only ways we can avoid that it is to either argue for apparent
age or say all science is wrong.

There are no other alternatives, except those who pick and choose which
science they agree with and have a pick'n'mix view or even claim to have
another paradigm.

Perhaps this explains why discussions over YEC are always so heated.

Michael

----- Original Message -----
From: "wjp" <wjp@swcp.com>
To: <D.F.Siemens@ame8.swcp.com>; "Jr.""" <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
Cc: <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>; <asa@calvin.edu>; <david.clounch@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: [asa] Yes -- the YECs are still winning

Dave:

Such a view would entail some very low opinion of the YEC as a person.

I think it is very possible for us to be vastly mistaken and that God
did not intend to mislead. Your view appears remarkably similar to
Bertrand Russell in why he doesn't believe in God: To little evidence.

Did God intend to mislead Bertrand Russell?

bill

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:27:03 -0700, "D. F. Siemens, Jr."
<dfsiemensjr@juno.com> wrote:
> These are compatible provided you make one assumption, that God made the
> creation to mislead those who are not of the elect. Most people do not
> put the /Omphalos/ assumption quite this strongly, but the requirement of
> your two points is that what we observe is intended to mislead. Of
> course, the elect are only YEC. But their God is not the Truth. You need
> to revise I John 3:19.
> Dave (ASA)
>
> On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 20:09:17 -0600 wjp <wjp@swcp.com> writes:
>> George:
>>
>> This is quite a strong statement. I take it that you believe it is
>> impossible
>> that the following two propositions could be true.
>>
>> 1) All that you (and others) regard as evidence for an ancient world
>> obtains.
>> 2) The world is young.
>>
>> Proposition (1) presumes the entire world of human experience as you
>> take it
>> to be and all the theories and instruments employed in the
>> determination that
>> such and such serves as evidence for an old world. By "evidence" I
>> mean what
>> Bridgman means: a meter reading. The world that obtains has these
>> meter
>> readings, these instruments, and theories. That is, what obtains is
>> what we
>> can "objectively" associate with a state of world and human
>> understanding.
>>
>> Both propositions must come to some common understanding of "old"
>> and "young,"
>> that is, some standard of temporal measurement, although science
>> lacks any
>> absolute measure of time intervals.
>>
>> George, if this is what you believe, and I take it at least many on
>> this list
>> agree, then I begin to grasp the nature of the attitudes reflected
>> on this list
>> towards YEC.
>>
>> I certainly do not accept that the two propositions mentioned above
>> are contraries.
>> Indeed, I am amazed that anyone could believe so.
>>
>> But so it goes.
>>
>> bill powers
>> White, SD
>>
>> On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 20:39:53 -0400, "George Murphy"
>> <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>> > There is plenty of scientific evidence that the earth is old that
>> is just
>> > as compelling as the evidence for the age of distant stars. In
>> addition,
>> > a strict literal interepretation of Gen.1 places the creation of
>> the stars
>> > after that of the earth.
>> >
>> > There is no YEC view that is congruent with objective reality.
>> >
>> > Shalom
>> > George
>> > http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: David Clounch
>> > To: Dehler, Bernie
>> > Cc: asa@calvin.edu
>> > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 7:58 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [asa] Yes -- the YECs are still winning
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > So when you observe a supernova explosion at 90 million light
>> years
>> > away, that event didn't really happen because the universe is only
>> a few
>> > thousand years old.
>> >
>> > With this logic we could also all believe that everything was
>> just
>> > made 10 seconds ago- including the memories of all our past
>> events, which
>> > didn't really happen.
>> >
>> > ,,,Bernie
>> > Bernie,
>> > I had not read this until now. You point out something I have
>> been
>> > thinking of for a long time. The YEC position can produce a
>> quirky
>> > phenomenology. The real problem with this phenomenology is it is
>> also
>> > FATAL to the concept of objective reality. If I were a YEC I
>> would run
>> > from this as fast as I could. Christianity and the very idea of
>> truth
>> > are both based on the idea of an objective reality. As is
>> science.
>> >
>> > One must ask, is there a form of YEC that teaches that the earth
>> is
>> > young but the universe old? That seems to be the only chance YEC
>> has of
>> > being congruent with objective reality.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
>> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
>> > On Behalf Of John Walley
>> > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 6:13 AM
>> > To: asa@calvin.edu; Randy Isaac
>> > Subject: Re: [asa] Yes -- the YECs are still winning
>> >
>> > I think it is probably wise to leave the door open to
>> "appearance of
>> > age" YEC because at the end of the day we have to accept
>> supernatural
>> > intervention at some point anyway and we can't scientifically rule
>> this
>> > out. It is probably a good strategy to just draw the line on
>> countering
>> > and disproving false statements that are offered as scientific
>> support of
>> > these views. It is a free country and people can believe whatever
>> myths or
>> > fables they want as long as they don't try to represent it as
>> science.
>> >
>> > But by this logic would ASA take issue with RTB statements
>> that
>> > newfound function for junk DNA and the function argument in
>> general negate
>> > the pseudogene evidence for common descent? Doesn't that fall
>> afoul of the
>> > criterion for integrity in science?
>> >
>> > Ironically, this postion backs RTB into the corner of
>> "appearance of
>> > ancestry" just like the YECs appearance of age. They will admit it
>> looks
>> > that way but they appeal to a deceptive record of nature and a
>> deceptive
>> > Creator to avoid the obvious implications if the science. I
>> concede they
>> > should be allowed to believe that if they want but they shouldn't
>> be
>> > allowed to get away with saying science supports them in that
>> without a
>> > response. Does ASA officially address this anywhere?
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Wed, 2/4/09, Randy Isaac <randyisaac@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > From: Randy Isaac <randyisaac@comcast.net>
>> > > Subject: Re: [asa] Yes -- the YECs are still winning
>> > > To: asa@calvin.edu
>> > > Date: Wednesday, February 4, 2009, 10:24 PM
>> > > Bernie wrote:
>> > > > But even the ASA doesn't have a position against
>> > > YEC, so maybe it is true? ;-)
>> > >
>> > > From PSCF June 2007 Vol. 59 No. 2 p. 143-146
>> > >
>> > > "The ASA does not take a position on issues when there
>> > > is honest disagreement among Christians provided there is
>> > > adherence to our statement of faith and to integrity in
>> > > science. Accordingly, the ASA neither endorses nor opposes
>> > > young-earth creationism which recognizes the possibility of
>> > > a recent creation with appearance of age or which
>> > > acknowledges the unresolved discrepancy between scientific
>> > > data and a young-earth position. However, claims that
>> > > scientific data affirm a young earth do not meet the
>> > > criterion of integrity in science. Any portrayal of the RATE
>> > > project as confirming scientific support for a young earth
>> > > contradicts the RATE project's own report. The ASA can
>> > > and does oppose such deception."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
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>> > > message.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>>
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Received on Mon Mar 30 08:59:56 2009

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