Re: [asa] A question on Genesis

From: George Murphy <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>
Date: Wed Mar 25 2009 - 21:00:32 EDT

Certainly literary judgment is important. A person who is familiar only
with scientific writing is probably ill-prepared to read the Bible. (Of
course scientific writing can be good literature but it seldom is.) What
Lewis said about the nature of the NT certainly should be listened to by
biblical scholars. It would be wrong, though, to think that those scholars
generally aren't familiar with literature. Remember that most of them, &
most theologians, got their training traditionally in the classics. But
unlike Lewis, they generally have had no experience in writing fiction, & a
literary critic who's never written any literature is in a weak position.
One thing that such biblical critics may leave out of the picture is the
literary creativity of the biblical authors. But of course for a lot of
conservative Christians those writers weren't really supposed to be creative
either but just secretaries of the Holy Spirit.

Lewis's expertise is most germane with regard to the NT. He didn't have - &
didn't claim to have - the same degree of knowledge about the OT. See,
e.g., the
long footnote on p.139 of _Miracles_. & his conservatism is sometimes
overrated by Evangelicals. What he says in that footnote about the
mythological character of some parts of the OT would get him booted from a
lot of churches & maybe the Evangelical Theological Society.

Lewis's statement from an essay on Malory in which he's comparing that
author with some of the florid French Arthurian romances - "One magician is
better than two magicians" - is a good literary insight which I've sometimes
quoted in connection with miracles.

Shalom
George
http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Preston Garrison" <pngarrison@att.net>
To: "George Murphy" <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>; "ASA list" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [asa] A question on Genesis

> George,
>
> I guess one thing I mean to get at by my questions is what role does
> literary judgement have in thinking about scripture? As scientists we tend
> to want some definitive way, mathematical if possible to make sure the
> hypothesis fits the data. On this group when Scripture is discussed we
> tend to consider various scientific disciplines, theology, and history.
>
> We don't usually get into matters of literary judgement, because it just
> doesn't seem scientific or theological. People like C.S. Lewis read the
> Bible first as literature. I just reread where Lewis said he would trust
> the judgements of Biblical scholars a lot more if he thought they had read
> widely in ancient literature from various cultures. He had done that.
>
> I heard a lecture recently in which a young Christian sociologist had
> gathered a huge amount of data from around the world and done a
> statistical analysis of the hypothesis that the aspects of modernity that
> we usually think are desirable (democracy with a wide franchise and other
> participation, a relatively free media, and several other similar
> variables) correlated very strongly, for this kind of study (about 0.5),
> with the historical presence of Protestant missionaries in the vicinity.
>
> I pointed out that a very similar conclusion about the consequences of
> Protestant ideas was reached 175 years ago by Alexis de Toqueville without
> any statistics at all, just shrewd observation and questioning on a long
> trip to America, and comparison with his experience in France.
>
> To take another example, my cousin has 17,000 hrs flying ag planes in West
> Texas. He developed, purely based on long experience, some rules of thumb
> on how long you have to wait in the morning for the shallow inversion
> layer that develops over the ground overnight to mix before you spray, if
> you don't want the herbicide to drift 10 miles rather that settling on the
> field. He found out later that his rules match what a guy at the Univ. of
> Arkansas came up with in a computer model.
>
> Experience matters. It can even substitute in some cases pretty well for
> science.
>
> The people who put each book of the Bible together weren't primarily
> trying to produce great literature - they were concerned with telling what
> they believed to be the history of their people for the purpose of
> spiritual and moral instruction. But they did produce great literature,
> and I think that was because they had some literary sense within their
> tradition. They were telling stories and they wanted to tell them well.
> (Moorad can take this paragraph as a statement of some of my assumptions
> if he wants to.)
>
> Shouldn't that perspective be part of what we consider when we think about
> the Bible, even on this scientific-theological group? What was the human
> author(s) trying to say? And yes, I do believe the whole thing was
> inspired by the Holy Spirit, but a large part of why I believe that is
> that I can see a consistent message - the same message being expressed
> from different perspectives by different authors.
>
> The literary people like Lewis look at the forest from a pretty good
> height - not as close as the historians and archeologists and not as high
> as the theologians, but that just means they don't have as far to fall.
>
> Preston
>
>
>
>
>>Preston -
>>
>>The question you pose below is a very important one but also one that's
>>not easy to get at. A lot of the earlier critical study of scripture was
>>devoted to taking the text apart, trying to determine different sources,
>>when they may have been written, their theological emphases &c. While
>>sometimes the critics got carried away with this and were overconfident
>>about the "assured results" of biblical research in this regard, that
>>analytical work was an essential step. It could not, however, be the last
>>word. Having taken the text apart & studied the pieces, we need to put it
>>back together. That has led, 1st, to the work called "redaction
>>criticism," in which the process (redaction - or sometimes I just call it
>>editing) of putting material from different sources to form, one of the
>>gospels, is studied. Then "canonical criticism" is the study of the
>>different parts of scripture as part of their canonical whole. I.e.,
>>Genesis is not just chapters 1-50 but those chapters as a part of the OT
>>or of the whole Bible.
>>
>>I should say at this point that the very idea of the canon is rejected by
>>some "religious studies" people for whom the canon is essentially
>>arbitrary. But for anything like traditional Christianity it's crucial.
>>The apocryphal gospels are interesting & can be helpful in understanding
>>the development of Christianity, but they are not part of the
>>authoritative scripture.
>>
>>OK, your question is how the redactional process took place to give us the
>>final form of the Pentateuch & Genesis in particular. Unfortunately we
>>have very little information about how that took place. The "documentary
>>hypothesis" was that the sources of the Pentateuch were documents called
>>the J (by the Yahwist, but that begins with J in German), E (Elohist), D
>>(Deuteronomist) and P (Priestly). The way this hypothesis used to be
>>presented did sometimes give the picture of a scissors and paste job,
>>someone gluing the different parts together in a sometimes clumsy way. I
>>certainly don't think it happened that way. For starters, we don't even
>>know that there were "documents" rather than, e.g., oral tradition for
>>much of this. But whatever we call them, they are integrated much more
>>skillfully than that picture suggests. The very fact that for centuries
>>not only common people but biblical scholars could read these texts and
>>only occasionally sense some discontinuity shows that. Once one becomes
>>aware of the possibility of sources and starts looking for evidence of
>>them - e.g., when there are what look like duplications of essentially the
>>same story or apparent discrepancies (why is Hagar carrying her 16 or 17
>>year old son in Gen.21:14-15) - you can find them. But there clearly was
>>an attempt to compose a unified text.
>>
>>However, that doesn't mean that it was all made internally consistent in
>>the way that a modern western academic might want. If we were combining
>>sources and wanted to preserve the integrity of each we'd clearly indicate
>>which piece came from which source with footnotes or different font or
>>something like that. (See, e.g., a modern edition of The Anglo-Saxon
>>Chronicle or something like that.) If we just wanted a single account to
>>replace the individual sources we'd eliminate the duplications and get rid
>>of the discrepancies. Moses wouldn't get called by God twice in Exodus and
>>his father in law wouldn't have different names in different places. And
>>we'd be sure that there were no theological differences - God wouldn't
>>disapprove of Israel having a king in some parts of I Samuel and OK it in
>>others. But these things apparently didn't bother the Israelites who gave
>>us the present form of our text.
>>
>>Unfortunately we don't know how the redactors thought about that. Were
>>they simply not aware of some of these differences? That seems hard to
>>imagine but today intelligent people can miss those differences and even
>>vigorously resist the idea that there are any. Did they see a higher
>>theological unity? Or did they simply see texts that are apparently
>>contradictory (like the provisions for sacrifice in Leviticus and the
>>condemnations of sacrifice by the prophets) as both inspired and therefore
>>needing to be preserved? (If the latter, however, they didn't just put
>>them together "mindlessly.)
>>
>>Those are legitimate questions but in the end we need to get beyond just
>>the intentions of writers and redactors and take seriously the idea that
>>scripture is inspired, not only in writing but also in rbinging together
>>its parts. And while some theologians would object to it, I think there's
>>some truth in the old idea of a sensus plenior, a "fuller sense" of
>>scripture than what the original writers and redactors understood. I.e.,
>>the one whose intentions are ultimately important is not the human writers
>>or editors but the Holy Spirit.
>>
>>Shalom
>>George
>><http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm>http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Preston Garrison" <<mailto:pngarrison@att.net>pngarrison@att.net>
>>To: "George Murphy" <<mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>;
>>"ASA list" <<mailto:asa@calvin.edu>asa@calvin.edu>
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 1:29 AM
>>Subject: Re: [asa] A question on Genesis
>>
>> > George,
>>>
>>> I don't really disagree with anything you say. But I remain unclear
>>> on one thing. Do you think that anyone put the sources together with
>>> a unified intention, or did someone simply assemble them in a more or
>>> less mindless way because they were all highly regarded, and they
>>> just thought they should all be available together? Or do you have
>>> some other view?
>>>
>>> Obviously, any such view is a matter of literary and theological
>>> judgement based on the text itself aided by the kind of information
>>> about the culture and history and such that Dick puts together. So
>>> what do you think - relatively mindless assembly, perhaps by a
>>> committee, or a unified viewpoint?
>>>
>>> Preston
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>In order to respond adequately I need to say some preliminary things
>>>>about theology.
>>>>
>>>>Theology is, in essence, thinking about what we belief - "faith in
>>>>search of understanding" in the classic phrase. There is "one
>>>>faith" (Eph.4:5) but believers in different contexts with different
>>>>concerns will think & speak about the faith in different ways.
>>>>Theological consensus then does not mean that we must all think &
>>>>speak in the same way but that our different theologies must in some
>>>>sense be equivalent.
>>>>
>>>>I find it helpful to make an analogy with physics here. Different
>>>>observers in different reference frames will see things differently
>>>>and measure some quantities (e.g., lengths and times) differently.
>>>>What Einstein did with relativity theory was to provide a
>>>>transformation that relates observations in one frame to those in
>>>>another frame moving with respect to the first, and require that
>>>>the true laws of physics be invariant (or technically, covariant)
>>>>under this transformation - i.e., be of such a form that they are
>>>>valid in every frame. In a similar way, a valid theological
>>>>expression of the Christian faith must be properly related to other
>>>>valid expressions of the faith. (Lest anyone be concerned about
>>>>"relativism," remember that in relativity everything is NOT
>>>>relative. There are absolutes - e.g., the speed of light.)
>>>>
>>>>The different biblical writers thought about and expressed the faith
>>>>of Israel & the church in different ways - i.e., they had different
>>>>theologies. In the NT, e.g., the way that Paul speaks about law,
>>>>faith, righteousness and other matters is different from the way
>>>>Matthew speaks about them. The different gospel writers have
>>>>differing theological emphases. Luke, e.g., likes to emphasise the
>>>>theme of prayer. In the Johannine books Jesus is the Word of God
>>>>while other NT writers use the picture of him as Holy Wisdom. This
>>>>does not mean that the different writers simply "contradict"one
>>>>another! But it takes some serious reflection to see gow the
>>>>theology of one writer is the "transform" of another writer's
>>>>expression.
>>>>
>>>>To illustrate this for classes I've often given a handout that has
>>>>two texts about the death of Lincoln - one from a good historian's
>>>>(Benjamin Thomas) bio of Lincoln and the other Walt Whitman's poem
>>>>"O Captain! My Captain!" They of course speak of Lincoln's death
>>>>in very different ways - one focusing literally "Just the facts" and
>>>>the other very figuratively on the meaning of Lincoln's death. It
>>>>would be utterly wrong to try to "harmonize" them historically.
>>>>Even their views of the significance of the event differ because one
>>>>was written just after it happened & the other ~ 90 years later.
>>>>But it would be even more wrong to say that they "contradict" one
>>>>another.
>>>>
>>>>Turning now to the Pentateuch, and Genesis in particular,
>>>>theological differences among the different "sources" that critical
>>>>scholars have discerned can be seen. What is called the P source
>>>>shows a much greater concern than the others for ritual matters,
>>>>e.g. (That's where the P comes from - it's the Priestly source.)
>>>>You see that already in the first creation account with the 7 day
>>>>framework, pointing to the Sabbath. & in fact there are other
>> >>differences between the 1st & 2d account. In one we have a
>>>>sovereign God who brings things into being effortlessly by his
>>>>command alone while in the other God literally gets down in the dirt
>>>>to create the human. That's a difference of theological expression.
>>>>
>>>>& scripture is richer for that difference. It gives a broader
>>>>picture of Israel's God than either account separately. God is, to
>>>>use later philosophical language, both transcendent and immanent.
>>>>We would be poorer for it if we had only one account, which is just
>>>>one reason why many of the attempts to "harmonize" the two is so
>>>>unfortunate. The situation is similar with the four gospels.
>>>>
>>>>How can we say that these different views aren't contradictory? One
>>>>basic reason is that they are all included in the canon of
>>>>scripture. In fact it's the canon that in a sense that gives us the
>>>>limits of permissible theological diversity. Not all theologies are
>>>>valid.
>>>>
>>>>Shalom
>>>>George
>>>><<http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm>http://home.roadrunner..com/~scitheologyglm>http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm>http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Preston Garrison"
>>>><<<mailto:pngarrison@att.net>pngarrison@att.net>mailto:pngarrison@att.net>pngarrison@att.net>
>>>>To: "George Murphy"
>>>><<<mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>
>>>>Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 6:49 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [asa] A question on Genesis
>>>>
>>>> > >
>>>>>>This is not to say that no harmonizations of such texts are
>>>>>>appropriate. But it should be theological harmonization rather than
>>>>>>historical.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Shalom
>>>>>>George
>>>>>>http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason I think we should look for coherence in the story and
>>>>> very
>>>>> likely a single author who used source materials is because the
>>>>> theological perspective seems to be consistent. It looks like
>>>>> someone
>>>>> put it together to tell a set of related stories from a very
>>>>> consistent theological perspective, just as Dante and Milton did.
>>>>>
>>>>> Preston
>

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Received on Wed Mar 25 21:00:57 2009

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