RE: [asa] Adios, ASA List (Heat in the kitchen)

From: Dehler, Bernie <>
Date: Tue Mar 17 2009 - 16:22:05 EDT

"If you can't stand the heat...". Jesus said something similar- such as that if you are the kind that looks back you aren't fit.

Luke 9:62

Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."

Also the parable of the sower- seed in shallow soil fried by the Sun (it couldn't take the heat).

Also, the 'timid' or 'cowards' are not fit for heaven:

Rev. 21:

 6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

I'm not saying David or anyone else is a coward, afraid of the heat, etc.

I think everyone agrees that people on this list should be Christ-like (that means not rude). We don't need unnecessary heat.

However, everyone should also be free to express their opinion and people shouldn't be thin-skinned and get upset because others don't agree with them or recognize their supreme authority (and brilliance) on all things religious and scientific. If everyone just offered their own humble opinion, how can that upset any person? Oh, but some readers may get led astray. That's a bad thought- instead leave it up to God and the Holy Spirit to direct people. Just give your opinion for consideration.

We've had the same problem in my science/religion discussion group. The breakthrough is in realizing we can all share our own opinions, and we don't have to worry about having the last word, others being mislead, being recognized as being right, etc.



From: [] On Behalf Of Michael Roberts

Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 11:36 AM

To: Dick Fischer; 'Murray Hogg'


Subject: Re: [asa] Adios, ASA List

Well, Murray did ask

Show me!:)

----- Original Message -----

From: Dick Fischer

To: 'Murray Hogg'


Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 6:17 PM

Subject: RE: [asa] Adios, ASA List

Hi Murray:

Actually that phrase, "If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen," comes from Saint Harry Truman, our illustrious 33rd president. He's from Missouri I might add.

Dick Fischer, GPA president

Genesis Proclaimed Association

"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"

-----Original Message-----

From: [] On Behalf Of Murray Hogg

Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 1:17 PM

To: asa

Subject: Re: [asa] Adios, ASA List

If one can't take the heat & etc...

And precisely where did Jesus say that?

Dick Fischer wrote:

> Respectfully, David and Gordon, I disagree. Finding the right answer in

> the long run is more important than are ruffled feathers or trampled

> sensibilities. Consider those organizations that find themselves stuck

> in flawed apologetics where members and former members suffer from

> disillusionment, and some leave the Christian faith altogether. Who

> would depart this list, even with all our occasional verbal harangues,

> and become an atheist or agnostic?




> Truth has an importance for its own sake, but if in addition it can

> advance the gospel message then let's continue our search for it and put

> aside our petty personal grievances. I have spent a ton of energy and

> am prepared to invest more just to be a voice for correcting our

> out-of-date methods of reconciling Bible and science. If one can't take

> the heat ..., and you know the rest of that quote.




> Dick Fischer, GPA president


> Genesis Proclaimed Association


> "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"


> <>




> -----Original Message-----

> *From:* []

> *On Behalf Of *David Clounch

> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 17, 2009 11:19 AM

> *To:* gordon brown

> *Cc:* David Opderbeck; ASA

> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Adios, ASA List




> Gordon,


> Thank you. I totally agree.

> I find myself wishing the folks on the ASA list would champion the Bill

> of Rights more often. Or the principles thereof, or the spirit

> thereof. Instead what I've seen is "lets find the right answer"

> followed by "lets bash everybody who doesn't have the right answer".

> David Opderbeck gave me hope that he was at least one person who

> recognized that preserving civil liberties and freedom of thought is

> more important than arriving at any sort of correct theological

> viewpoint. I think a civil libertarian would oppose shoving a

> theological viewpoint down the throats of the masses. I see an

> attitude of intolerance on the list. I felt David Opderbeck worked

> against that, and was refreshing. The ASA as an organization must

> promote tolerance.


> David Clounch







> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:53 PM, gordon brown <

> <>> wrote:


> I will miss your contributions, David. My views are usually closer to

> yours than to those of many others on this list. I wish we had a

> diversity on this list that is more typical of the ASA in general. I

> don't think that this list represents a typical cross section of ASA

> membership, and when someone who thinks he represents a minority view on

> the list leaves, the imbalance becomes worse.


> Concerning my impressions of the general ASA membership, I think that

> there are many who are not passionate about the origins issue and have

> other scientific interests that relate to their faith. It also appears

> that there are a number of participants on this list who are not members

> of the ASA. A nonmember who joins the list may think that he or she is

> the only outsider on the list and judges the ASA by what is said on the

> list. I wonder how many might be discouraged from joining because of

> this seeming lack of diversity.


> Gordon Brown (ASA member)





> On Mon, 16 Mar 2009, David Opderbeck wrote:


> The recent discussion on this list about embryonic stem cell research has

> finally pushed me over the edge. I'm tired of being belittled, ridiculed,

> subjected to ad hominems, etc. every time I express an opinion that bears

> even a whiff of a "conservative" or "traditional" approach to a Christian

> worldview. I'm exhausted of having to defend the position that the Bible

> really does communicate truth about human history and the human condition in

> some meaningful sense. I'm sick of the culture of suspicion and scoffing

> that runs through our discourse. I need to break from the anger, arrogance,

> and self-indulgence of the flame wars that characterize this space.


> In the past, I've defended the ASA and this email list against attacks by

> various ID folks and others. I still don't think that all of the criticisms

> that have been levied against the ASA by those folks are fair. However, I

> think they are right that the ASA, particularly as characterized by this

> list, is hobbled by some kind of myopia. Yes, I know this list isn't

> representative of the ASA in an absolute sense, but it's an ASA-sponsored

> public discussion space, which is often a travesty. I've wasted too much

> time on it, and it's become spiritually not only unproductive, but a

> liability. Via con Dios.


> David W. Opderbeck

> Associate Professor of Law

> Seton Hall University Law School

> Director, Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology




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Received on Tue Mar 17 16:23:07 2009

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