Re: [asa] Adios, ASA List

From: Michael Roberts <>
Date: Tue Mar 17 2009 - 14:35:31 EDT

Well, Murray did ask

Show me!:)
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Dick Fischer
  To: 'Murray Hogg'
  Cc: ASA
  Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 6:17 PM
  Subject: RE: [asa] Adios, ASA List

  Hi Murray:

  Actually that phrase, "If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen," comes from Saint Harry Truman, our illustrious 33rd president. He's from Missouri I might add.

  Dick Fischer, GPA president

  Genesis Proclaimed Association

  "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"

  -----Original Message-----
  From: [] On Behalf Of Murray Hogg
  Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 1:17 PM
  To: asa
  Subject: Re: [asa] Adios, ASA List

  If one can't take the heat & etc...

  And precisely where did Jesus say that?

  Dick Fischer wrote:

> Respectfully, David and Gordon, I disagree. Finding the right answer in

> the long run is more important than are ruffled feathers or trampled

> sensibilities. Consider those organizations that find themselves stuck

> in flawed apologetics where members and former members suffer from

> disillusionment, and some leave the Christian faith altogether. Who

> would depart this list, even with all our occasional verbal harangues,

> and become an atheist or agnostic?




> Truth has an importance for its own sake, but if in addition it can

> advance the gospel message then let's continue our search for it and put

> aside our petty personal grievances. I have spent a ton of energy and

> am prepared to invest more just to be a voice for correcting our

> out-of-date methods of reconciling Bible and science. If one can't take

> the heat ., and you know the rest of that quote.




> Dick Fischer, GPA president


> Genesis Proclaimed Association


> "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"


> <>




> -----Original Message-----

> *From:* []

> *On Behalf Of *David Clounch

> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 17, 2009 11:19 AM

> *To:* gordon brown

> *Cc:* David Opderbeck; ASA

> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Adios, ASA List




> Gordon,


> Thank you. I totally agree.

> I find myself wishing the folks on the ASA list would champion the Bill

> of Rights more often. Or the principles thereof, or the spirit

> thereof. Instead what I've seen is "lets find the right answer"

> followed by "lets bash everybody who doesn't have the right answer".

> David Opderbeck gave me hope that he was at least one person who

> recognized that preserving civil liberties and freedom of thought is

> more important than arriving at any sort of correct theological

> viewpoint. I think a civil libertarian would oppose shoving a

> theological viewpoint down the throats of the masses. I see an

> attitude of intolerance on the list. I felt David Opderbeck worked

> against that, and was refreshing. The ASA as an organization must

> promote tolerance.


> David Clounch







> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:53 PM, gordon brown <

> <>> wrote:


> I will miss your contributions, David. My views are usually closer to

> yours than to those of many others on this list. I wish we had a

> diversity on this list that is more typical of the ASA in general. I

> don't think that this list represents a typical cross section of ASA

> membership, and when someone who thinks he represents a minority view on

> the list leaves, the imbalance becomes worse.


> Concerning my impressions of the general ASA membership, I think that

> there are many who are not passionate about the origins issue and have

> other scientific interests that relate to their faith. It also appears

> that there are a number of participants on this list who are not members

> of the ASA. A nonmember who joins the list may think that he or she is

> the only outsider on the list and judges the ASA by what is said on the

> list. I wonder how many might be discouraged from joining because of

> this seeming lack of diversity.


> Gordon Brown (ASA member)





> On Mon, 16 Mar 2009, David Opderbeck wrote:


> The recent discussion on this list about embryonic stem cell research has

> finally pushed me over the edge. I'm tired of being belittled, ridiculed,

> subjected to ad hominems, etc. every time I express an opinion that bears

> even a whiff of a "conservative" or "traditional" approach to a Christian

> worldview. I'm exhausted of having to defend the position that the Bible

> really does communicate truth about human history and the human condition in

> some meaningful sense. I'm sick of the culture of suspicion and scoffing

> that runs through our discourse. I need to break from the anger, arrogance,

> and self-indulgence of the flame wars that characterize this space.


> In the past, I've defended the ASA and this email list against attacks by

> various ID folks and others. I still don't think that all of the criticisms

> that have been levied against the ASA by those folks are fair. However, I

> think they are right that the ASA, particularly as characterized by this

> list, is hobbled by some kind of myopia. Yes, I know this list isn't

> representative of the ASA in an absolute sense, but it's an ASA-sponsored

> public discussion space, which is often a travesty. I've wasted too much

> time on it, and it's become spiritually not only unproductive, but a

> liability. Via con Dios.


> David W. Opderbeck

> Associate Professor of Law

> Seton Hall University Law School

> Director, Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology




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Received on Tue Mar 17 14:38:34 2009

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