Re: [asa] Adios, ASA List

From: Murray Hogg <>
Date: Tue Mar 17 2009 - 13:17:25 EDT

If one can't take the heat & etc...

And precisely where did Jesus say that?

Dick Fischer wrote:
> Respectfully, David and Gordon, I disagree. Finding the right answer in
> the long run is more important than are ruffled feathers or trampled
> sensibilities. Consider those organizations that find themselves stuck
> in flawed apologetics where members and former members suffer from
> disillusionment, and some leave the Christian faith altogether. Who
> would depart this list, even with all our occasional verbal harangues,
> and become an atheist or agnostic?
> Truth has an importance for its own sake, but if in addition it can
> advance the gospel message then letís continue our search for it and put
> aside our petty personal grievances. I have spent a ton of energy and
> am prepared to invest more just to be a voice for correcting our
> out-of-date methods of reconciling Bible and science. If one canít take
> the heat Ö, and you know the rest of that quote.
> Dick Fischer, GPA president
> Genesis Proclaimed Association
> "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
> <>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* []
> *On Behalf Of *David Clounch
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 17, 2009 11:19 AM
> *To:* gordon brown
> *Cc:* David Opderbeck; ASA
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Adios, ASA List
> Gordon,
> Thank you. I totally agree.
> I find myself wishing the folks on the ASA list would champion the Bill
> of Rights more often. Or the principles thereof, or the spirit
> thereof. Instead what I've seen is "lets find the right answer"
> followed by "lets bash everybody who doesn't have the right answer".
> David Opderbeck gave me hope that he was at least one person who
> recognized that preserving civil liberties and freedom of thought is
> more important than arriving at any sort of correct theological
> viewpoint. I think a civil libertarian would oppose shoving a
> theological viewpoint down the throats of the masses. I see an
> attitude of intolerance on the list. I felt David Opderbeck worked
> against that, and was refreshing. The ASA as an organization must
> promote tolerance.
> David Clounch
> On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:53 PM, gordon brown <
> <>> wrote:
> I will miss your contributions, David. My views are usually closer to
> yours than to those of many others on this list. I wish we had a
> diversity on this list that is more typical of the ASA in general. I
> don't think that this list represents a typical cross section of ASA
> membership, and when someone who thinks he represents a minority view on
> the list leaves, the imbalance becomes worse.
> Concerning my impressions of the general ASA membership, I think that
> there are many who are not passionate about the origins issue and have
> other scientific interests that relate to their faith. It also appears
> that there are a number of participants on this list who are not members
> of the ASA. A nonmember who joins the list may think that he or she is
> the only outsider on the list and judges the ASA by what is said on the
> list. I wonder how many might be discouraged from joining because of
> this seeming lack of diversity.
> Gordon Brown (ASA member)
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2009, David Opderbeck wrote:
> The recent discussion on this list about embryonic stem cell research has
> finally pushed me over the edge. I'm tired of being belittled, ridiculed,
> subjected to ad hominems, etc. every time I express an opinion that bears
> even a whiff of a "conservative" or "traditional" approach to a Christian
> worldview. I'm exhausted of having to defend the position that the Bible
> really does communicate truth about human history and the human condition in
> some meaningful sense. I'm sick of the culture of suspicion and scoffing
> that runs through our discourse. I need to break from the anger, arrogance,
> and self-indulgence of the flame wars that characterize this space.
> In the past, I've defended the ASA and this email list against attacks by
> various ID folks and others. I still don't think that all of the criticisms
> that have been levied against the ASA by those folks are fair. However, I
> think they are right that the ASA, particularly as characterized by this
> list, is hobbled by some kind of myopia. Yes, I know this list isn't
> representative of the ASA in an absolute sense, but it's an ASA-sponsored
> public discussion space, which is often a travesty. I've wasted too much
> time on it, and it's become spiritually not only unproductive, but a
> liability. Via con Dios.
> David W. Opderbeck
> Associate Professor of Law
> Seton Hall University Law School
> Director, Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
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Received on Tue Mar 17 13:18:02 2009

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