RE: [asa] Adios, ASA List

From: Dick Fischer <>
Date: Tue Mar 17 2009 - 12:04:56 EDT

Respectfully, David and Gordon, I disagree. Finding the right answer in the
long run is more important than are ruffled feathers or trampled
sensibilities. Consider those organizations that find themselves stuck in
flawed apologetics where members and former members suffer from
disillusionment, and some leave the Christian faith altogether. Who would
depart this list, even with all our occasional verbal harangues, and become
an atheist or agnostic?


Truth has an importance for its own sake, but if in addition it can advance
the gospel message then let's continue our search for it and put aside our
petty personal grievances. I have spent a ton of energy and am prepared to
invest more just to be a voice for correcting our out-of-date methods of
reconciling Bible and science. If one can't take the heat ., and you know
the rest of that quote.


Dick Fischer, GPA president

Genesis Proclaimed Association

"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"


-----Original Message-----
From: [] On
Behalf Of David Clounch
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 11:19 AM
To: gordon brown
Cc: David Opderbeck; ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] Adios, ASA List



Thank you. I totally agree.
I find myself wishing the folks on the ASA list would champion the Bill of
Rights more often. Or the principles thereof, or the spirit thereof.
Instead what I've seen is "lets find the right answer" followed by "lets
bash everybody who doesn't have the right answer".
David Opderbeck gave me hope that he was at least one person who
recognized that preserving civil liberties and freedom of thought is more
important than arriving at any sort of correct theological viewpoint. I
think a civil libertarian would oppose shoving a theological viewpoint down
the throats of the masses. I see an attitude of intolerance on the list. I
felt David Opderbeck worked against that, and was refreshing. The ASA as
an organization must promote tolerance.

David Clounch

On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:53 PM, gordon brown <>

I will miss your contributions, David. My views are usually closer to yours
than to those of many others on this list. I wish we had a diversity on this
list that is more typical of the ASA in general. I don't think that this
list represents a typical cross section of ASA membership, and when someone
who thinks he represents a minority view on the list leaves, the imbalance
becomes worse.

Concerning my impressions of the general ASA membership, I think that there
are many who are not passionate about the origins issue and have other
scientific interests that relate to their faith. It also appears that there
are a number of participants on this list who are not members of the ASA. A
nonmember who joins the list may think that he or she is the only outsider
on the list and judges the ASA by what is said on the list. I wonder how
many might be discouraged from joining because of this seeming lack of

Gordon Brown (ASA member)

On Mon, 16 Mar 2009, David Opderbeck wrote:

The recent discussion on this list about embryonic stem cell research has
finally pushed me over the edge. I'm tired of being belittled, ridiculed,
subjected to ad hominems, etc. every time I express an opinion that bears
even a whiff of a "conservative" or "traditional" approach to a Christian
worldview. I'm exhausted of having to defend the position that the Bible
really does communicate truth about human history and the human condition in
some meaningful sense. I'm sick of the culture of suspicion and scoffing
that runs through our discourse. I need to break from the anger, arrogance,
and self-indulgence of the flame wars that characterize this space.

In the past, I've defended the ASA and this email list against attacks by
various ID folks and others. I still don't think that all of the criticisms
that have been levied against the ASA by those folks are fair. However, I
think they are right that the ASA, particularly as characterized by this
list, is hobbled by some kind of myopia. Yes, I know this list isn't
representative of the ASA in an absolute sense, but it's an ASA-sponsored
public discussion space, which is often a travesty. I've wasted too much
time on it, and it's become spiritually not only unproductive, but a
liability. Via con Dios.

David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Director, Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology


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Received on Tue Mar 17 12:05:31 2009

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