Re: [asa] scientific fact vs. ideology?

From: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Mar 15 2009 - 20:09:27 EDT

Sorry I have just been popping in and out of this thread but were you aware that Obama's new Exec Order revoked Bush's previous one that endorsed non-embryonic stem cell research? Not sure I understand the point of this.

John

http://stemcells.nih.gov/policy/091907eo.htm

On June 20, 2007, President George W. Bush issued Executive Order 13435. The Executive Order requires that "The Secretary of Health and Human Services shall conduct and support research on the isolation, derivation, production, and testing of stem cells that are capable of producing all or almost all of the cell types of the developing body and may result in improved understanding of or treatments for diseases and other adverse health conditions, but are derived without creating a human embryo for research purposes or destroying, discarding, or subjecting to harm a human embryo or fetus."

--- On Sun, 3/15/09, David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [asa] scientific fact vs. ideology?
> To: "George Murphy" <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>
> Cc: "David Clounch" <david.clounch@gmail.com>, "Stephen Matheson" <smatheso@calvin.edu>, "ASA List" <asa@lists.calvin.edu>
> Date: Sunday, March 15, 2009, 5:36 PM
> Thanks, George, for noting the equally powerful column by
> Chapman, available
> here:
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-oped0312chapmanmar12,0,1933049.column
>
> Chapman notes:
>
> What this mandate means is simple: It may be permissible
> for scientists to
> create cloned embryos and kill them. It's not
> permissible to create cloned
> embryos and let them live. Their cells may be used for our
> benefit, but not
> for their own.
>
> There lies the reality of embryonic stem-cell research: It
> turns incipient
> human beings into commodities to be exploited for the sake
> of people who are
> safely past that defenseless stage of their lives.
>
> Isn't it a terrible shame that if Chapman and
> Krauthammer had expressed such
> views on our email list, rather than in the Chicago Tribune
> and Washington
> Post, they would have been blasted by Christian biologists
> et al. as
> ignorant nudniks with an agenda to tie the gospel to
> anti-science?
>
> David W. Opderbeck
> Associate Professor of Law
> Seton Hall University Law School
> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 3:53 PM, George Murphy
> <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Steve Chapman of the Chicago Tribune also had a
> column, "Stem cells
> > aren't just about science", that appeared in
> today's Akron Beacon Journal.
> >
> > I think the president is, in general, morally serious,
> but I agree with
> > Krauthammer that such seriousness wasn't shown in
> this decision - or on this
> > issue generally. Witness is statement during the
> campaign, in response to a
> > question about the beginning of life in his interview
> with Warren, that that
> > matter was "above my pay grade." OK, but if
> it's above your pay grade you
> > don't make a decision but pass it on to those who
> are supposed to be
> > qualified. I would add, for the sake of being
> > "fair and balanced", that I also object (on
> different grounds) to the
> > answer that the question of the onset of personhood is
> & must remain above
> > everybody's pay grade so that we will always have
> to proceed as if
> > personhood began at conception.
> >
> > Shalom
> > George
> >
> http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm<http://home.roadrunner.com/%7Escitheologyglm>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com>
> > *To:* George Murphy <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>
> > *Cc:* David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com> ;
> Stephen Matheson<smatheso@calvin.edu>; ASA
> > List <asa@lists.calvin.edu>
> > *Sent:* Sunday, March 15, 2009 2:45 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [asa] scientific fact vs. ideology?
> >
> > Charles Krauthammer wrote a column in the Washington
> Post where he says why
> > he refused to attend the policy ceremony. One should
> see his column to
> > evaluate his objections to the new science policy.
> Charles is not a
> > religious person. I have no idea whether or not that
> makes him any kind of
> > atheist. But it strikes me as ironic that a
> non-religious person can have
> > more common sense than a pile of religious people.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 12:36 PM, George Murphy
> <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>wrote:
> >
> >> David -
> >>
> >> You say that what is required before ESCR is
> appropriate is that
> >> proponents "prove that such embryos are not
> human beings in the sense that
> >> they can ethically be sacrificed in the course of
> the research." Previously
> >> you have referred to the difficulty of defining
> "person" but now you replace
> >> it for the purposes of this debate with
> "human being," which is if anything
> >> more ambiguous than "person." In any
> case, if you're going to demand that
> >> standard you need to define "human
> being." And give some indication of what
> >> you would accept as such proof so that proponents
> aren't faced with a
> >> moveable finish line.
> >>
> >> I should note that I don't consider myself
> among "proponents" of ESCR. I
> >> do think that a case can be made for its
> legitimacy in carefully defined
> >> ways but as I've said before, I think it's
> premature to go ahead with it at
> >> this point. What I object to in your arguments is
> not that you are
> >> concerned to protect the life of human beings but
> that you do not seem to
> >> allow any way for scientific knowledge about
> embryological development
> >> finally to make any difference in a decision.
> (N.B., I am not saying that
> >> you are unaware of such knowledge.) E.g., if the
> suggestion of a "brain
> >> birth" criterion is made on the basis of
> traditional ideas about rationality
> >> as a crucial component of personhood, I suspect
> (but correct me if I'm
> >> wrong) that you will respond with an argument that
> the embryo may have a
> >> rational soul (or equivalent language) even
> without a brain.
> >>
> >>
> >> Shalom
> >> George
> >>
> http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm<http://home.roadrunner.com/%7Escitheologyglm>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> *From:* David Opderbeck
> <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> >> *To:* Stephen Matheson <smatheso@calvin.edu>
> >> *Cc:* ASA List <asa@lists.calvin.edu>
> >> *Sent:* Sunday, March 15, 2009 1:16 PM
> >> *Subject:* Re: [asa] scientific fact vs. ideology?
> >>
> >> I don't think I tied the ethical imperatives I
> mentioned to "the gospel."
> >> Certainly one can believe the gospel -- the life,
> death and resurrection of
> >> Jesus -- and disagree with my application of some
> of the ethical imperatives
> >> that flow from the gospel. Yet, I think those
> ethical imperatives do bear
> >> closely on our subject. Again, I'm basically
> a MacIntyrian, so I'm not
> >> suggesting the love command et al. offer a simple
> deontological rule that
> >> directly overlays this situation. The question
> for me is what kind of
> >> tradition to we want to extend? I think a
> tradition in which doubt is
> >> resolved in favor of life, in which the most
> helpless are given the most
> >> protection, is most consistent with a genuine
> expression of a Christian
> >> tradition. That is a strong claim, for which I
> don't apologize, but it's
> >> not the same as linking the claim with "the
> gospel."
> >>
> >> I also think there's a burden of proof issue
> here that no one's touched
> >> on. The public debate in favor of ESCR seems to
> say this: we have a
> >> technology with some possible promise; the burden
> of proof is on any
> >> objectors to show that the research might impinge
> on human dignity. I think
> >> the burden of proof should properly be on the
> research community. You have
> >> a technology that requires research on human
> embryos: prove that such
> >> embryos are not human beings in the sense that
> they can ethically be
> >> sacrificed in the course of the research.
> >>
> >> The best response I've seen so far is that it
> isn't immediately certain
> >> whether a fertilized human egg will deveop into an
> individual because of the
> >> possibility of twinning. It's been suggested
> that "science" in this sense
> >> determines that an early-stage embryo can't be
> a "person." But this just
> >> begs the question of what constitutes a
> "person." Given likely advances in
> >> cloning technology, for example, every one of us
> could possibly "split" into
> >> another human being. Are we therefore not
> individual "persons?" Of course
> >> not. It simply means that one of the capabilities
> of personhood includes
> >> the production of additional persons. And this is
> hardly surprisng --
> >> humans have been doing this through sexual
> reproduction for millions of
> >> years.
> >>
> >> David W. Opderbeck
> >> Associate Professor of Law
> >> Seton Hall University Law School
> >> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Stephen Matheson
> <smatheso@calvin.edu>wrote:
> >>
> >>> David, first of all I'm uncomfortable
> with the suggestion that the
> >>> asserted "impossibility" of
> identifying when personhood begins is enough to
> >>> fully empower the precautionary principle.
> Uncertainty regarding the
> >>> beginning point does not entail uncertainty
> throughout the entire lifespan
> >>> of a cell or embryo. For example, we may be
> uncertain of the time at which
> >>> a human becomes "conscious" by some
> definition (and this would apply to any
> >>> definition that I know of), but we could
> simultaneously identify with
> >>> confidence certain stages at which the human
> is and is not conscious. It
> >>> simply does not follow that uncertainty
> regarding beginnings means
> >>> uncertainty in toto. Perhaps I misunderstand
> you, but it looks to me that
> >>> the agreed-upon uncertainty is being used
> inappropriately here.
> >>>
> >>> This is especially important since you have
> linked your preferences to
> >>> very basic claims of the faith. I hope
> you'll agree that your threefold
> >>> defense of your own position, which includes
> Jesus' summation of all the law
> >>> and prophets, is meaningless outside of the *a
> priori* definition of the
> >>> subjects of those imperatives. It seems to me
> that the discussion here is
> >>> not about whether Christians ought to love
> others, or even about how to love
> >>> others. It's about whether very early
> human embryos (but not ova or
> >>> cultured pluripotent cells) are properly the
> subject of such imperatives.
> >>> Can we agree that perhaps even nasty old
> Steve Matheson has read the
> >>> gospels? Do you mean to suggest that someone
> who thinks a zygote is a whole
> >>> lot different from a fetus is someone who
> might hesitate to affirm the
> >>> Golden Rule? This is EXACTLY why the
> discussion makes me nervous: debatable
> >>> opinions are too closely associated with the
> gospel itself.
> >>>
> >>> Note that I'm not assuming any ignorance
> on your part, and I agree that
> >>> the combination of the precautionary principle
> and potentiality should lead
> >>> us to protect human life even when we're
> not certain of its "personhood"
> >>> etc. I'm NOT attacking your opinions
> regarding these principles. I'm
> >>> expressing disquiet about the trajectory of
> the analysis -- it just happens
> >>> to end at fertilization -- and especially
> about what I see as an
> >>> inappropriate association of opinions (however
> noble or excellent) with the
> >>> gospel.
> >>>
> >>> Steve Matheson
> >>>
> >>> >>> David Opderbeck
> <dopderbeck@gmail.com> 03/14/09 2:15 PM >>>
> >>>
> >>> You anticipate the problem, Don, but you
> don't really offer any solution.
> >>> The problem of euthanasia and what
> "capable" means is one reason why I think
> >>> the potentiality principle remains important
> (though, as we have noted ad
> >>> nauseum, "important" doesn't in
> my mind mean "conclusive" or
> >>> "incontrovertible.") . A human
> embryo is in fact more "capable" of having
> >>> "spiritual interaction" than a
> 90-year-old person, if "capabilities" include
> >>> all potential interactions over the course of
> an average human lifetime.
> >>>
> >>> This ties into a very important strand of
> theory in virtue ethics related
> >>> to global development, Martha Nussbaum's
> "capabilities approach." Note that
> >>> I am NOT suggesting Nussbaum applies this in
> the same way I might to our
> >>> present discussion -- in fact, I think
> Nussbaum's articulation of
> >>> "capability" is too individualistic.
> The point is simply that "capabilities"
> >>> or "potentiality" remain important
> for many normative theories of ethics.
> >>>
> >>> IMHO, both on either scientific or theological
> grounds, it is presently
> >>> impossible to state with any reasonable degree
> of certainty when
> >>> "personhood" begins. In my view,
> this means it's equally impossible to draw
> >>> meaningful lines about when it is permissible
> to terminate a human life
> >>> having some potentential to exercise at least
> some of the capabilities we
> >>> associate with personhood -- whether at the
> very start or very end of
> >>> biological life. Given that, and given the
> immense value (not "absolute"
> >>> value, but immense value) we place (or ought
> to place) on human life, in my
> >>> view the precautionary principle strongly
> weighs against intentional
> >>> termination of embryonic human life.
> >>>
> >>> Further, I think the view I'm taking here
> is the most consistent among
> >>> the presently competing views with a Christian
> understanding of the human
> >>> person, the relationships among human persons,
> and the role of the state. I
> >>> take as a central ethical imperative
> Jesus' restatement of the law: to love
> >>> God with all the heart, mind, soul and
> strength, and to love one's neighbor
> >>> as one's self. I further take as a central
> ethical imperative the repeated
> >>> Biblical injunction to care for and defend
> those who are unable to protect
> >>> themselves against the exercise of power by
> others. And, I think the state
> >>> has a particular role as God's vice-regent
> over human affairs to promote
> >>> laws consistent with these imperatives.
> >>>
> >>> If there is any reasonable doubt at all about
> the status of an entity as
> >>> "human," then, IMHO, the love
> command and the injunction to defend the
> >>> powerless compel us to oppose the intentional
> termination of embryonic human
> >>> life, as well as human life in its end stages,
> EVEN IF the purpose of that
> >>> action is to promote research that might
> benefit us.
> >>>
> >>> Now, someone might take the line here taken by
> Ted Peters: beneficence
> >>> and the love command suggest exactly the
> opposite -- that we ought to
> >>> resolve this doubt in favor of persons who
> unquestionably presently possess
> >>> human capabilities but who are damaged by
> illness. (Peters argues this in
> >>> "Playing God?", in which he
> acknowledges the potentiality principle, BTW). I
> >>> can't agree.
> >>>
> >>> Among other things, I think this view
> ultimately devalues people with
> >>> disabilities. Disabled people who might
> benefit from embryonic stem cell
> >>> research -- whether a paraplegic or my own son
> with his neurological
> >>> misfunction -- remain able to exercise human
> capabilities, with excellence,
> >>> dignity and beauty. The fact that society
> views my son as "marred" or
> >>> "impaired" doesn't justify
> *completely extinguishing* the capabilities
> >>> of another person or potential person. A
> better approach, IMHO, is to pursue
> >>> other avenues of research while at the same
> time exercising love and
> >>> beneficence by helping people like my son to
> live meaningful lives within
> >>> the context of their unique physical
> abilities. At some point, after all,
> >>> every one of us must learn to live with the
> unique limitations fate, or
> >>> providence, or karma, or whatever you want to
> call it, hands us.
> >>>
> >>> David W. Opderbeck
> >>> Associate Professor of Law
> >>> Seton Hall University Law School
> >>> Director, Gibbons Institute of Law, Science
> & Technology
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 3:03 AM, Don
> Winterstein
> >>>
> >>> <dfwinterstein@msn.com>
> >>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> IMO abortion, while always traumatic,
> distasteful and a thing that
> >>>> should be undertaken only as some sort of
> last resort, isn't murder unless
> >>>> the organism aborted is capable of
> spiritual interaction at the level of
> >>>> persons. Capability for spiritual
> interaction at the level of persons, which
> >>>> I regard as tantamount to "having a
> soul," among humans requires a fairly
> >>>> complete body. A few million cells
> won't do. In other words, humans don't
> >>>> get souls at conception but at some much
> later stage of development. In
> >>>> other words, the soul is an emergent
> property of the body--and you can't
> >>>> prove me wrong on this from Scripture.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you amputate someone's leg,
> you're killing human tissue but you're
> >>>> not guilty of murder because you're
> not killing a person. Destroying a
> >>>> frozen embryo is in a similar category.
> >>>>
> >>>> Does this mean I'd support mercy
> killing for the mentally defective on
> >>>> grounds they can't be spiritual? No,
> because no human can tell where the
> >>>> boundary is between having capability for
> spiritual interaction and not
> >>>> having such capability. But I'm
> comfortable sticking my neck out to say that
> >>>> frozen embryos don't have it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Don
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>
> >>>> *From:* John Burgeson (ASA member)
> <hossradbourne@gmail.com>
> >>>>
> >>>> *To:* David Campbell
> <pleuronaia@gmail.com>
> >>>>
> >>>> *Cc:* asa@lists.calvin.edu
> >>>>
> >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:47 AM
> >>>>
> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [asa] scientific fact vs.
> ideology?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Doug posted, in part: "public policy
> should be based on scientific
> >>>> facts not ideology.
> >>>> I think this is an awful statement.
> It's a false dichotomy.
> >>>> Scientific "facts" don't
> make public policy; they form a necessary
> >>>> informational base, but every action based
> on that knowledge also
> >>>> requires a moral/ethical/ideological
> decision."
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't see it as "awful,"
> but a simple factual statement. If one
> >>>> takes it to mean "based ONLY on
> scientific facts," then, of course,
> >>>> I'd agree that it is
> "awful." I'd probably use a stronger term.But
> it
> >>>> does not say that.
> >>>>
> >>>> Relative to the stem cell issue, it really
> boils down to the question
> >>>> "does a frozen embryo have personhood
> -- a soul?" For those asserting
> >>>> "yes," the issue is clear; stem
> cell research is immoral. For those
> >>>> who assert otherwise, stem cell research
> in morally OK.
> >>>>
> >>>> Having read a lot on this, I tend toward
> the latter position, but I do
> >>>> NOT claim certainty. I don't know that
> any of us can claim certainty
> >>>> on the issue.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is a classic case that whichever side
> of the issue you choose, you
> >>>> run the risk of doing harm (or not
> avoiding harm).
> >>>>
> >>>> jb
> >>>>
> >>>> On 3/10/09, David Campbell
> <pleuronaia@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> > Yes, in the case of embryonic stem
> cells there is little disagreement
> >>>> > about the science, and the
> self-identified "scientific" policy is
> >>>> > merely one ideology among many.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > In other cases, such as environmental
> or evolution, there is denial of
> >>>> > the science that could be described
> as disagreement about the science.
> >>>> > Nevertheless, even in such cases,
> science is still descriptive.
> >>>> > Science cannot be morally
> prescriptive, as that is outside its scope.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > --
> >>>> > Dr. David Campbell
> >>>> > 425 Scientific Collections
> >>>> > University of Alabama
> >>>> > "I think of my happy condition,
> surrounded by acres of clams"
> >>>> >
> >>>> > To unsubscribe, send a message to
> majordomo@calvin.edu with
> >>>> > "unsubscribe asa" (no
> quotes) as the body of the message.
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Burgy
> >>>>
> >>>> www.burgy.50megs.com
> >>>>
> >>>> To unsubscribe, send a message to
> majordomo@calvin.edu with
> >>>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as
> the body of the message.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >

      

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Received on Sun Mar 15 20:10:18 2009

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