Re: [asa] Charles Krauthammer WAS scientific fact vs. ideology?

From: George Murphy <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>
Date: Sun Mar 15 2009 - 17:35:24 EDT

A slightly puzzling question. He would differ to begin with in not
believing in Jesus as the Christ. Presumably you mean how would he differ
in some other way.

Shalom
George
http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Walley" <john_walley@yahoo.com>
To: "George Murphy" <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>; "David Clounch"
<david.clounch@gmail.com>
Cc: "David Opderbeck" <dopderbeck@gmail.com>; "Stephen Matheson"
<smatheso@calvin.edu>; "ASA List" <asa@lists.calvin.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 5:03 PM
Subject: [asa] Charles Krauthammer WAS scientific fact vs. ideology?

>
> Krauthammer is a a very thoughtful secular Jew who is an MD and I think a
> psychiatrist. He appears to believe in God but not in any recognizable
> form. I always find his insight to be very stimulating. In his previous
> columns he did come out and oppose ID and Dover and upheld Darwinism but
> he managed to justify a theistic belief at the same time. This poses an
> interesting question, how would a secular theist like Krauthammer differ
> from a Christian TE?
>
> John
>
>
> --- On Sun, 3/15/09, David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [asa] scientific fact vs. ideology?
>> To: "George Murphy" <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>
>> Cc: "David Opderbeck" <dopderbeck@gmail.com>, "Stephen Matheson"
>> <smatheso@calvin.edu>, "ASA List" <asa@lists.calvin.edu>
>> Date: Sunday, March 15, 2009, 2:45 PM
>> Charles Krauthammer wrote a column in the Washington Post
>> where he says why
>> he refused to attend the policy ceremony. One should see
>> his column to
>> evaluate his objections to the new science policy. Charles
>> is not a
>> religious person. I have no idea whether or not that
>> makes him any kind of
>> atheist. But it strikes me as ironic that a non-religious
>> person can have
>> more common sense than a pile of religious people.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 12:36 PM, George Murphy
>> <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>wrote:
>>
>> > David -
>> >
>> > You say that what is required before ESCR is
>> appropriate is that proponents
>> > "prove that such embryos are not human beings in
>> the sense that they can
>> > ethically be sacrificed in the course of the
>> research." Previously you have
>> > referred to the difficulty of defining
>> "person" but now you replace it for
>> > the purposes of this debate with "human
>> being," which is if anything more
>> > ambiguous than "person." In any case, if
>> you're going to demand that
>> > standard you need to define "human being."
>> And give some indication of what
>> > you would accept as such proof so that proponents
>> aren't faced with a
>> > moveable finish line.
>> >
>> > I should note that I don't consider myself among
>> "proponents" of ESCR. I
>> > do think that a case can be made for its legitimacy in
>> carefully defined
>> > ways but as I've said before, I think it's
>> premature to go ahead with it at
>> > this point. What I object to in your arguments is not
>> that you are
>> > concerned to protect the life of human beings but that
>> you do not seem to
>> > allow any way for scientific knowledge about
>> embryological development
>> > finally to make any difference in a decision. (N.B.,
>> I am not saying that
>> > you are unaware of such knowledge.) E.g., if the
>> suggestion of a "brain
>> > birth" criterion is made on the basis of
>> traditional ideas about rationality
>> > as a crucial component of personhood, I suspect (but
>> correct me if I'm
>> > wrong) that you will respond with an argument that the
>> embryo may have a
>> > rational soul (or equivalent language) even without a
>> brain.
>> >
>> >
>> > Shalom
>> > George
>> >
>> http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm<http://home.roadrunner.com/%7Escitheologyglm>
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > *From:* David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
>> > *To:* Stephen Matheson <smatheso@calvin.edu>
>> > *Cc:* ASA List <asa@lists.calvin.edu>
>> > *Sent:* Sunday, March 15, 2009 1:16 PM
>> > *Subject:* Re: [asa] scientific fact vs. ideology?
>> >
>> > I don't think I tied the ethical imperatives I
>> mentioned to "the gospel."
>> > Certainly one can believe the gospel -- the life,
>> death and resurrection of
>> > Jesus -- and disagree with my application of some of
>> the ethical imperatives
>> > that flow from the gospel. Yet, I think those ethical
>> imperatives do bear
>> > closely on our subject. Again, I'm basically a
>> MacIntyrian, so I'm not
>> > suggesting the love command et al. offer a simple
>> deontological rule that
>> > directly overlays this situation. The question for me
>> is what kind of
>> > tradition to we want to extend? I think a tradition
>> in which doubt is
>> > resolved in favor of life, in which the most helpless
>> are given the most
>> > protection, is most consistent with a genuine
>> expression of a Christian
>> > tradition. That is a strong claim, for which I
>> don't apologize, but it's
>> > not the same as linking the claim with "the
>> gospel."
>> >
>> > I also think there's a burden of proof issue here
>> that no one's touched
>> > on. The public debate in favor of ESCR seems to say
>> this: we have a
>> > technology with some possible promise; the burden of
>> proof is on any
>> > objectors to show that the research might impinge on
>> human dignity. I think
>> > the burden of proof should properly be on the research
>> community. You have
>> > a technology that requires research on human embryos:
>> prove that such
>> > embryos are not human beings in the sense that they
>> can ethically be
>> > sacrificed in the course of the research.
>> >
>> > The best response I've seen so far is that it
>> isn't immediately certain
>> > whether a fertilized human egg will deveop into an
>> individual because of the
>> > possibility of twinning. It's been suggested that
>> "science" in this sense
>> > determines that an early-stage embryo can't be a
>> "person." But this just
>> > begs the question of what constitutes a
>> "person." Given likely advances in
>> > cloning technology, for example, every one of us could
>> possibly "split" into
>> > another human being. Are we therefore not individual
>> "persons?" Of course
>> > not. It simply means that one of the capabilities of
>> personhood includes
>> > the production of additional persons. And this is
>> hardly surprisng --
>> > humans have been doing this through sexual
>> reproduction for millions of
>> > years.
>> >
>> > David W. Opderbeck
>> > Associate Professor of Law
>> > Seton Hall University Law School
>> > Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Stephen Matheson
>> <smatheso@calvin.edu>wrote:
>> >
>> >> David, first of all I'm uncomfortable with
>> the suggestion that the
>> >> asserted "impossibility" of identifying
>> when personhood begins is enough to
>> >> fully empower the precautionary principle.
>> Uncertainty regarding the
>> >> beginning point does not entail uncertainty
>> throughout the entire lifespan
>> >> of a cell or embryo. For example, we may be
>> uncertain of the time at which
>> >> a human becomes "conscious" by some
>> definition (and this would apply to any
>> >> definition that I know of), but we could
>> simultaneously identify with
>> >> confidence certain stages at which the human is
>> and is not conscious. It
>> >> simply does not follow that uncertainty regarding
>> beginnings means
>> >> uncertainty in toto. Perhaps I misunderstand you,
>> but it looks to me that
>> >> the agreed-upon uncertainty is being used
>> inappropriately here.
>> >>
>> >> This is especially important since you have linked
>> your preferences to
>> >> very basic claims of the faith. I hope you'll
>> agree that your threefold
>> >> defense of your own position, which includes
>> Jesus' summation of all the law
>> >> and prophets, is meaningless outside of the *a
>> priori* definition of the
>> >> subjects of those imperatives. It seems to me
>> that the discussion here is
>> >> not about whether Christians ought to love others,
>> or even about how to love
>> >> others. It's about whether very early human
>> embryos (but not ova or
>> >> cultured pluripotent cells) are properly the
>> subject of such imperatives.
>> >> Can we agree that perhaps even nasty old Steve
>> Matheson has read the
>> >> gospels? Do you mean to suggest that someone who
>> thinks a zygote is a whole
>> >> lot different from a fetus is someone who might
>> hesitate to affirm the
>> >> Golden Rule? This is EXACTLY why the discussion
>> makes me nervous: debatable
>> >> opinions are too closely associated with the
>> gospel itself.
>> >>
>> >> Note that I'm not assuming any ignorance on
>> your part, and I agree that
>> >> the combination of the precautionary principle and
>> potentiality should lead
>> >> us to protect human life even when we're not
>> certain of its "personhood"
>> >> etc. I'm NOT attacking your opinions
>> regarding these principles. I'm
>> >> expressing disquiet about the trajectory of the
>> analysis -- it just happens
>> >> to end at fertilization -- and especially about
>> what I see as an
>> >> inappropriate association of opinions (however
>> noble or excellent) with the
>> >> gospel.
>> >>
>> >> Steve Matheson
>> >>
>> >> >>> David Opderbeck
>> <dopderbeck@gmail.com> 03/14/09 2:15 PM >>>
>> >>
>> >> You anticipate the problem, Don, but you don't
>> really offer any solution.
>> >> The problem of euthanasia and what
>> "capable" means is one reason why I think
>> >> the potentiality principle remains important
>> (though, as we have noted ad
>> >> nauseum, "important" doesn't in my
>> mind mean "conclusive" or
>> >> "incontrovertible.") . A human embryo is
>> in fact more "capable" of having
>> >> "spiritual interaction" than a
>> 90-year-old person, if "capabilities" include
>> >> all potential interactions over the course of an
>> average human lifetime.
>> >>
>> >> This ties into a very important strand of theory
>> in virtue ethics related
>> >> to global development, Martha Nussbaum's
>> "capabilities approach." Note that
>> >> I am NOT suggesting Nussbaum applies this in the
>> same way I might to our
>> >> present discussion -- in fact, I think
>> Nussbaum's articulation of
>> >> "capability" is too individualistic. The
>> point is simply that "capabilities"
>> >> or "potentiality" remain important for
>> many normative theories of ethics.
>> >>
>> >> IMHO, both on either scientific or theological
>> grounds, it is presently
>> >> impossible to state with any reasonable degree of
>> certainty when
>> >> "personhood" begins. In my view, this
>> means it's equally impossible to draw
>> >> meaningful lines about when it is permissible to
>> terminate a human life
>> >> having some potentential to exercise at least some
>> of the capabilities we
>> >> associate with personhood -- whether at the very
>> start or very end of
>> >> biological life. Given that, and given the immense
>> value (not "absolute"
>> >> value, but immense value) we place (or ought to
>> place) on human life, in my
>> >> view the precautionary principle strongly weighs
>> against intentional
>> >> termination of embryonic human life.
>> >>
>> >> Further, I think the view I'm taking here is
>> the most consistent among the
>> >> presently competing views with a Christian
>> understanding of the human
>> >> person, the relationships among human persons, and
>> the role of the state. I
>> >> take as a central ethical imperative Jesus'
>> restatement of the law: to love
>> >> God with all the heart, mind, soul and strength,
>> and to love one's neighbor
>> >> as one's self. I further take as a central
>> ethical imperative the repeated
>> >> Biblical injunction to care for and defend those
>> who are unable to protect
>> >> themselves against the exercise of power by
>> others. And, I think the state
>> >> has a particular role as God's vice-regent
>> over human affairs to promote
>> >> laws consistent with these imperatives.
>> >>
>> >> If there is any reasonable doubt at all about the
>> status of an entity as
>> >> "human," then, IMHO, the love command
>> and the injunction to defend the
>> >> powerless compel us to oppose the intentional
>> termination of embryonic human
>> >> life, as well as human life in its end stages,
>> EVEN IF the purpose of that
>> >> action is to promote research that might benefit
>> us.
>> >>
>> >> Now, someone might take the line here taken by Ted
>> Peters: beneficence and
>> >> the love command suggest exactly the opposite --
>> that we ought to resolve
>> >> this doubt in favor of persons who unquestionably
>> presently possess human
>> >> capabilities but who are damaged by illness.
>> (Peters argues this in "Playing
>> >> God?", in which he acknowledges the
>> potentiality principle, BTW). I can't
>> >> agree.
>> >>
>> >> Among other things, I think this view ultimately
>> devalues people with
>> >> disabilities. Disabled people who might benefit
>> from embryonic stem cell
>> >> research -- whether a paraplegic or my own son
>> with his neurological
>> >> misfunction -- remain able to exercise human
>> capabilities, with excellence,
>> >> dignity and beauty. The fact that society views my
>> son as "marred" or
>> >> "impaired" doesn't justify
>> *completely extinguishing* the capabilities of
>> >> another person or potential person. A better
>> approach, IMHO, is to pursue
>> >> other avenues of research while at the same time
>> exercising love and
>> >> beneficence by helping people like my son to live
>> meaningful lives within
>> >> the context of their unique physical abilities. At
>> some point, after all,
>> >> every one of us must learn to live with the unique
>> limitations fate, or
>> >> providence, or karma, or whatever you want to call
>> it, hands us.
>> >>
>> >> David W. Opderbeck
>> >> Associate Professor of Law
>> >> Seton Hall University Law School
>> >> Director, Gibbons Institute of Law, Science &
>> Technology
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 3:03 AM, Don Winterstein
>> >>
>> >> <dfwinterstein@msn.com>
>> >>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> IMO abortion, while always traumatic,
>> distasteful and a thing that
>> >>> should be undertaken only as some sort of last
>> resort, isn't murder unless
>> >>> the organism aborted is capable of spiritual
>> interaction at the level of
>> >>> persons. Capability for spiritual interaction
>> at the level of persons, which
>> >>> I regard as tantamount to "having a
>> soul," among humans requires a fairly
>> >>> complete body. A few million cells won't
>> do. In other words, humans don't
>> >>> get souls at conception but at some much later
>> stage of development. In
>> >>> other words, the soul is an emergent property
>> of the body--and you can't
>> >>> prove me wrong on this from Scripture.
>> >>>
>> >>> If you amputate someone's leg, you're
>> killing human tissue but you're
>> >>> not guilty of murder because you're not
>> killing a person. Destroying a
>> >>> frozen embryo is in a similar category.
>> >>>
>> >>> Does this mean I'd support mercy killing
>> for the mentally defective on
>> >>> grounds they can't be spiritual? No,
>> because no human can tell where the
>> >>> boundary is between having capability for
>> spiritual interaction and not
>> >>> having such capability. But I'm
>> comfortable sticking my neck out to say that
>> >>> frozen embryos don't have it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Don
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>
>> >>> *From:* John Burgeson (ASA member)
>> <hossradbourne@gmail.com>
>> >>>
>> >>> *To:* David Campbell
>> <pleuronaia@gmail.com>
>> >>>
>> >>> *Cc:* asa@lists.calvin.edu
>> >>>
>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:47 AM
>> >>>
>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [asa] scientific fact vs.
>> ideology?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Doug posted, in part: "public policy
>> should be based on scientific
>> >>> facts not ideology.
>> >>> I think this is an awful statement. It's a
>> false dichotomy.
>> >>> Scientific "facts" don't make
>> public policy; they form a necessary
>> >>> informational base, but every action based on
>> that knowledge also
>> >>> requires a moral/ethical/ideological
>> decision."
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't see it as "awful," but a
>> simple factual statement. If one
>> >>> takes it to mean "based ONLY on
>> scientific facts," then, of course,
>> >>> I'd agree that it is "awful."
>> I'd probably use a stronger term.But it
>> >>> does not say that.
>> >>>
>> >>> Relative to the stem cell issue, it really
>> boils down to the question
>> >>> "does a frozen embryo have personhood --
>> a soul?" For those asserting
>> >>> "yes," the issue is clear; stem cell
>> research is immoral. For those
>> >>> who assert otherwise, stem cell research in
>> morally OK.
>> >>>
>> >>> Having read a lot on this, I tend toward the
>> latter position, but I do
>> >>> NOT claim certainty. I don't know that any
>> of us can claim certainty
>> >>> on the issue.
>> >>>
>> >>> It is a classic case that whichever side of
>> the issue you choose, you
>> >>> run the risk of doing harm (or not avoiding
>> harm).
>> >>>
>> >>> jb
>> >>>
>> >>> On 3/10/09, David Campbell
>> <pleuronaia@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> > Yes, in the case of embryonic stem cells
>> there is little disagreement
>> >>> > about the science, and the
>> self-identified "scientific" policy is
>> >>> > merely one ideology among many.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > In other cases, such as environmental or
>> evolution, there is denial of
>> >>> > the science that could be described as
>> disagreement about the science.
>> >>> > Nevertheless, even in such cases, science
>> is still descriptive.
>> >>> > Science cannot be morally prescriptive,
>> as that is outside its scope.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
>> >>> > Dr. David Campbell
>> >>> > 425 Scientific Collections
>> >>> > University of Alabama
>> >>> > "I think of my happy condition,
>> surrounded by acres of clams"
>> >>> >
>> >>> > To unsubscribe, send a message to
>> majordomo@calvin.edu with
>> >>> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes)
>> as the body of the message.
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Burgy
>> >>>
>> >>> www.burgy.50megs.com
>> >>>
>> >>> To unsubscribe, send a message to
>> majordomo@calvin.edu with
>> >>> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the
>> body of the message.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>
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Received on Sun Mar 15 17:35:45 2009

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