Re: [asa] on miracles

From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
Date: Thu Mar 12 2009 - 14:39:00 EDT

Don,
Taking off from your approach rather than Jim's, how do you know that the
nova did not produce a cosmic ray that altered a gene to produce a
desired end? This is at the "micro" end. Also, could the extinction of
the dinosaurs have a beneficial effect in producing us? This is at the
"macro" end. I know of no way to exhaust the possible positive and
desirable effects of all the various events down through the ages. As
things have applied to me, I now recognize that matters that seemed
devastating at the time have had distinctly beneficial effects in the
long run.
Dave (ASA)

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 07:59:26 -0700 Jim Armstrong <jarmstro@qwest.net>
writes:
[Ooops, I meant to post this. JimA]

If you think "deal with the amount of detail necessary", then you may
have missed something about the front-loading concept. For many "front
loaders" at least, the understanding is not that an immense clockwork was
put into motion to produce exactly what we are, along with our particular
contexts, both intentionally quite specific in form and function. That
idea embodies the notion of a single trajectory leading to us, a tad
presumptuous and limiting in my view, considering the immensity of
Creation.

Instead, the front-loading understanding is that an immense and dynamic
creation was brought into being, with the capacity for huge numbers of
potential developmental trajectories, one of which is the trajectory of
which we are a part. My particular view is that the immensity of the
universe (by our measure) is a reflection of the intent to have an
intrinsic robustness (with a nod to Howard Van Til) embodying enormous
numbers of such trajectories. That creates a universe that is
unimaginably abundantly fruitful and diverse development-wise, ensuring
at least in part the occurrence of certain kinds of outcomes which we can
perhaps reasonably conclude includes the likes of ourselves, in whatever
ways and extents we manifest a desired outcome of this intentional
dynamic and evolving (yeh, I know) universe. As a part of its robustness,
or relentless developmental character, this outcome could occur perhaps,
or probably, more than once, though these outcomes would almost
necessarily not be identical in physical attributes, and would occur
non-concurrently along their own unique timelines.

I understand why it is appealing for many reasons to conceptualize a
continuously supported/guided creation. At least in the form above,
front-loading may leave behind the notion of a certain specificity, a
certain uniqueness of purpose and outcome manifest in us, ...or does it?

But I would question why all this focus on the physicality of Creation
and its functioning. Is that aspect of Creation really central to what we
are in our place in this Creation, or is the heart of the matter how we
live and act, and have the capacity to bring about that which transcends
this physical context (at least in part). It seems to me that the
existence and functioning of the physical world is merely(!?) a backdrop
or ambiance, or reaction vessel or "soil", a host if you will for what
might rhe ultimate expectation or hope for and in us as we continue to
learn and grow where we seem to have sprouted in this incredibly verdant
and blessed garden.

JimA [Friend of ASA]

Don Winterstein wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts.

You wrote: "...Distinguishing special guidance from front-loading from
ordinary providence is not easy."

As I have such a difficult time taking front-loading seriously, I'd like
to ask a question to improve my understanding of how others regard it.
Namely, if God did everything through front-loading, would he have
included a nearby supernova (Ordovician extinction) or an asteroid impact
(K-T extinction) as an integral part of the process from before the Big
Bang?

I suppose to ask the question is to answer it, but at the same time the
thing boggles my mind. I really hope God doesn't have to deal with the
amount of detail necessary to make something like that happen. If he
does, I'm sorry. That's another reason why I prefer ongoing
"special guidance." It may not be philosophically or scientifically
elegant, but it's so much more compatible with what I perceive as
reality, so much easier for mortals to deal with.

Don

----- Original Message -----
From: David Campbell
To: asa
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] on miracles

> In other words, while I agree with David C. that God is far more
concerned
> with spiritual than physical attributes of his creatures--and his
> predestining may well not have included shapes of individual body
> parts--it's hard for me to imagine any form of marine life or
invertebrate
> life becoming capable of satisfying God's larger (presumed)
requirement.
> (Well, maybe if dolphins had arms and hands with opposable thumbs....
But
> how would they smelt ores under water? We can go into water and air and
> space; marine animals would have great difficulty doing much of
anything out
> of water.)

Just to clarify: I do think that the spiritual aspects are more
important, but did not mean to take a stand either way as to whether
the physical attributes are important.

Theologically, I think all the details were predestined and "what
might have been" may not be a meaningful question, but as far as I
know there's no scientific way to assess those points.

There are various studies that support the idea that only a certain
range of forms and lifestyles are available, and that almost all of
them have been taken by organisms, though of course it's hard to prove
without either a large sample of planets with complex life forms that
arose independently or else the ability to run an experiment for a
billion years or so.

Also, a lot of the features of interest here are very hard to quantify
and analyze. For example, Gould was quite excited about the fact
that, whereas almost all known post-Cambrian arthropods (and all known
post-Paleozoic ones) fit into a few categories based on the number,
position, and type of appendages (e.g., 0-2 pairs of antennae, which
segment has which mouthparts, 6 or 8 or more legs), many of the
Cambrian ones do not fit into these groups. On the other hand, most
of the Cambrian arthropods are vaguely shrimplike, such that Walcott
thought that they could fit into the standard groups and only with the
detailed study of the past four decades or so did the anomalies gain
attention. In contrast, anyone quickly can tell the differences
between a butterfly, a beetle, a bee, and a flea, yet they are all
members of a single major group of insects, the holometabolous orders.
 If the insects had a breathing system that allowed them to get
bigger, they might have been able to develop large brains.

> And while Gould may have exaggerated the randomness of evolution, from
what
> I know of it, and most emphatically in acknowledgement of the effects
of
> mass extinctions, it seems very likely that starting evolution at
different
> times and places would lead to significantly different outcomes. While
> "changing one electron" should not have a major effect (unless it
caused a
> crucial mutation!), even a minor extinction event should have a
noticeable
> effect. For example, such extinction is likely to give some species a
new
> competitive advantage that in turn may lead it to eliminate still other
> species.
> Many authors have pointed out that more than 99% of all species have
gone
> extinct. Chances seem very good that, under conditions of randomness
and
> without any special guidance, the species God wanted would not have
> survived.
> Don

Of course, distinguishing special guidance from front-loading from
ordinary providence is not easy.

Although mass extinctions are notoriously "random" in being
unpredictable and not necessarily sparing apparently successful groups
(it's hard to think of any organismal feature short of advanced
technological culture that would help avoid an incoming asteroid, for
example), often certain characteristics do seem to convey an
advantage. Conway Morris's work on the topic is probably the most
extensive available, though of course taking a particular stance
rather than merely summarizing the pros and cons of all options.

A rather odd example comes from Dixon's envisioned world without a K/T
impact. Although he rejects Dale Russell's intelligent human-like
dinosauroid on ground that evolution is more random than that, a lot
of the things he does have look a whole lot like actual non-human
animals.

-- 
Dr. David Campbell
425 Scientific Collections
University of Alabama
"I think of my happy condition, surrounded by acres of clams"
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Received on Thu Mar 12 14:44:46 2009

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