Re: [asa] Behe on "intervention"

From: George Murphy <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>
Date: Wed Mar 04 2009 - 20:36:39 EST

For starters, anyone who claims to specify "exactly" who God is isn't
talking about God.

Shalom
George
http://home.roadrunner.com/~scitheologyglm

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Patterson" <james000777@bellsouth.net>
To: <asa@lists.calvin.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Behe on "intervention"

>I personally think Bob Russell's Objective Special Providence concept
> answers many questions. It's natural as it can be to the naturalists
> because
> it's not detectable, it's a means for God to be actively involved (no
> matter
> how you want to frame that involvement) without "signs and wonders". Of
> course this applies only to quantum action at the DNA level, but I would
> presume that this would apply across quantum physics generally? I had an
> opportunity to ask Frank Tipler recently about Russell's OSP. Let me go
> find
> that...ah here it is.
> ---------
> I said:
> Do you know of a gentleman by the name of Robert John Russell? He wrote a
> very interesting chapter in "Perspectives on an Evolving Creation" that
> touches on quantum mechanics as the possible answer to an ongoing problem.
> He notes that the one place God could act in the process of evolution
> without evidence of intervention is at the level of quantum interactions
> at
> the DNA level - essentially God-directed changes at the quantum level of
> molecular activity that would otherwise be considered random mutation. He
> calls this "Objective Special Providence".
>
> Frank replies:
> I do, unfortunately. He's one of the innumerable theologians these days
> who
> prefer vagueness over the precision of St. Augustine and St. Aquinas. In
> reading a theologian, ask yourself, "what EXACTLY does he mean by "God".
> With Russell, as with Paul Davies, I have no idea. This contradicts
> unitarity, hence it is wrong. Quantum mechanics is MORE deterministic than
> classical mechanics. I gave a mathematical proof in my technical talk.
>
> Einstein said "God does not play dice with the universe." Darwin said "God
> plays dice with the universe. Einstein got it right, Darwin, got it wrong.
>
> Russell is always wanting to substitute his own laws for the known laws of
> physics whenever he wishes. I have no patience with this. And as I pointed
> out in my earlier lecture, Russell is explicitly rejecting the traditional
> Christian definition of "miracle."
>
> -----------
>
> So. I have a hard time understanding Frank...can anyone interpret, or even
> comment, on his reply?
> Regard,
> JP
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Jon Tandy
> Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:34 AM
> To: asa@lists.calvin.edu
> Subject: RE: [asa] Behe on "intervention"
>
> I think the easy answer to your question is, "divine providence". Now the
> question is to define "divine providence", and how it works. We had a
> discussion on this recently, in response to some probing questions that I
> offered.
>
> I would add, consider this not just in the context of science/natural
> history, but also in the context of human history, human-social thought,
> and
> in our religious lives. How does God work -- with non-natural
> intervention,
> hidden intervention, or with an essentially non-interventionist "hidden
> hand" that has real influence on temporal events? I believe there is
> great
> value in considering providence from all these ways, not just from the
> limited view of scientific theory and the physical history of the
> universe,
> but I haven't had a chance to follow up on some recent thoughts along
> those
> lines.
>
> Romans 8:28 says that "all things work together for good to them that love
> God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." How does God
> do
> that in human-social interaction? In our spiritual relationship? In
> biology or physics?
>
> Prov 16:4 (NIV) says "The LORD works out everything for his own ends--
> even
> the wicked for a day of disaster." How does the Lord work in everything,
> even in evil things done through the free agency of the wicked, to
> accomplish His own ends? And would we be able to prove through systematic
> analysis of human-social events where, exactly, did God's action start and
> stop? I think in most cases the answer would be no. For those who don't
> allow for divine intervention, the answer would always be no.
>
> When God caused Israel to prevail against their enemies, or when they were
> wicked for their enemies to prevail against them in battle, where was
> God's
> action? Did God openly intervene, or partially intervene, in ways that
> were
> outside an apparently natural course of events? I am willing to say that
> He
> did, but in many cases the "intervention" attributed to God through
> scripture and/or prophecy could be fully explained as a natural sequence
> of
> cause and effect events - wise or poor decisions on the part of a general,
> seemingly natural events such as a hailstorm that turn the course of the
> battle, etc. I am also willing to say that He intervened supernaturally
> (overtly) in biological history, but I understand the reasons for thinking
> it may have been otherwise.
>
> More thoughts, but that's all I have time for now.
>
>
> Jon Tandy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Alexanian, Moorad
> Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:49 AM
> To: Ted Davis; asa@lists.calvin.edu
> Subject: RE: [asa] Behe on "intervention"
>
> I revert back to a question I asked some time ago, how do Christians, who
> are scientists or else talk about science, understand Hebrews 1: 3, "...
> upholds all things by the word of His power..." Is that "miraculous
> intervention" or "partial interference," or else "constant interference?"
>
> Moorad
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Wed Mar 4 20:38:09 2009

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Wed Mar 04 2009 - 20:38:09 EST