RE: [asa] science martyrs

From: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Mar 02 2009 - 08:44:36 EST

Obviously this is a rhetorical question and it confirms my point that Collines can keep his scientific credentials and respect while Behe can't because Collins doesn't adopt a position that is stronger than the evidence will support which Behe does to his detriment.

People find fault with TE because it is too vague and nebulous but that is what the data is as well.

Thanks

John

--- On Sun, 3/1/09, Alexanian, Moorad <alexanian@uncw.edu> wrote:

> From: Alexanian, Moorad <alexanian@uncw.edu>
> Subject: RE: [asa] science martyrs
> To: "john_walley@yahoo.com" <john_walley@yahoo.com>
> Cc: "AmericanScientificAffiliation" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 9:27 PM
> There is no doubt that natural selection and random
> mutations do occur right now, which is an experimental fact.
> What is not an experimental fact but a historical
> supposition is that God was involved in that particular
> fashion with His creation. I dare ask anyone who claims to
> know it all, how does God interact with His creation?
>
> Moorad
> ________________________________________
> From: John Walley [john_walley@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 7:30 PM
> To: Alexanian, Moorad
> Cc: AmericanScientificAffiliation
> Subject: RE: [asa] science martyrs
>
> We all agree with Behe and his "doubts that natural
> selection and
> random mutations can account for the totality of the
> existing facts". The only question is how God was
> involved in helping that along. We have to be careful to not
> insist on a mechanism that we cannot verify or prove. I
> think that is the mistake Behe makes and the difference
> between he and Collins and their status in the scientific
> community.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
>
> --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Alexanian, Moorad
> <alexanian@uncw.edu> wrote:
>
> > From: Alexanian, Moorad <alexanian@uncw.edu>
> > Subject: RE: [asa] science martyrs
> > To: "john_walley@yahoo.com"
> <john_walley@yahoo.com>, "Lawrence Johnston"
> <johnston@uidaho.edu>, "David Clounch"
> <david.clounch@gmail.com>
> > Cc: "Marcio Pie" <pie@ufpr.br>,
> "ASA list" <asa@calvin.edu>
> > Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 5:20 PM
> > I just heard Michael Behe in our university and his
> > presentation was totally scientific. I believe he is
> making
> > the same type of observations that Darwin made. Darwin
> > concluded that the struggle for survival was an
> indication
> > of how to understand the history of life on earth.
> Behe is
> > confronted with the complexity of life and the
> dynamics that
> > takes place in cells and doubts that natural selection
> and
> > random mutations can account for the totality of the
> > existing facts.
> >
> > Moorad
> > ________________________________________
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> > [asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of John Walley
> > [john_walley@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 5:11 PM
> > To: Lawrence Johnston; David Clounch
> > Cc: Marcio Pie; ASA list
> > Subject: Re: [asa] science martyrs
> >
> > I have a contrarian opinion of Behe and Steinberg. I
> > don't think the resistance against them is
> necessarily
> > due to their faith but in using their credentials in
> science
> > to push an agenda that is contrary to science.
> >
> > Case in point, Behe is a professor at a private
> Christian
> > schools and his own department disavows him. In
> contrast,
> > Francis Collins holds a prominent and prestigious
> government
> > job and no one is calling for his resignation. The
> > difference? Behe is a special creationist and Collins
> is a
> > TE. One can be falsified by science but the other
> can't.
> > One is in conflict with science and the other is
> > complementary to it but not in conflict.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, David Clounch
> > <david.clounch@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > From: David Clounch
> <david.clounch@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [asa] science martyrs
> > > To: "Lawrence Johnston"
> > <johnston@uidaho.edu>
> > > Cc: "Marcio Pie" <pie@ufpr.br>,
> > "ASA list" <asa@calvin.edu>
> > > Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 5:29 AM
> > > Dean Kenyon? Author of Biochemical
> Predestination?
> > Changed
> > > his mind,
> > > suffered the consequences, and didn't he
> have to
> > have
> > > court action to
> > > re-instate him?
> > >
> > > But define martyr? Does losing one's job or
> > career
> > > count? Or does
> > > it take shed blood to count? Or is doing jail
> time the
> > > criteria?
> > >
> > > If Mike Behe isn't a martyr I'd be darned
> if I
> > know
> > > what one is. Lets
> > > say he is scientifically wrong. So what? His
> crime
> > is
> > > aiding people
> > > who don't want to kiss the ring of the
> cardinals
> > of the
> > > church of
> > > evolution. That is all his crime is. Its a
> political
> > > crime. Similar
> > > in nature to what Oppenheimer was accused of.
> The
> > > cardinals have
> > > instigated the new McCarthyism.
> > >
> > > Has not Jerry B., ASA member, suffered career
> loss for
> > > writing a neutral piece?
> > >
> > > Rod LeVake, who lives near me, wrote a
> > "proposed"
> > > lesson plan, was
> > > told no, and he then said he would comply with
> any
> > lesson
> > > plan the
> > > administrration wanted. But he lost his job (not
> his
> > > employment - his
> > > job) because they feared LeVake goes to the
> wrong
> > church
> > > and
> > > therefore isn't capable of complying with the
> > > administrations lesson
> > > plan.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Lawrence
> Johnston
> > > <johnston@uidaho.edu> wrote:
> > > > An excellent set of examples is given in the
> > recent
> > > movie "Expelled" of
> > > > academics who lost their jobs and their
> prospects
> > for
> > > their careers,
> > > > because of their having doubts about
> Evolution.
> > > >
> > > > Larry Johnston
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> ===========================================================
> > > >
> > > > Lawrence H. Johnston
> home: 917
> > E.
> > > 8th st.
> > > >
> > > > professor of physics, emeritus
> > Moscow,
> > > Id 83843
> > > >
> > > > University of Idaho
> > (208)
> > > 882-2765
> > > >
> > > > Fellow of the American Physical Society
> > Website:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> <http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/%7Ejohnston/HOMEPA%7E1.HTM>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Marcio Pie wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Hi there,
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> I got a simple question: what are the
> > > well-established cases of science
> > > >> martyrs? By that I mean cases of
> scientists
> > (or,
> > > more appropriately, natural
> > > >> philosophers) that experienced
> persecution
> > > **because** of their scientific
> > > >> beliefs.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> There is the commonly cited but mistaken
> case
> > of
> > > Galileo, which is part of
> > > >> scientific pop culture, but has been
> regarded
> > as a
> > > myth by people like Ron
> > > >> Numbers. Also, I just learned that
> Giordano
> > Bruno
> > > was not condemned because
> > > >> of his scientific views, as commonly
> stated,
> > but
> > > rather due to his
> > > >> theological views on the trinity.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> So, is there any example of someone that
> was
> > > really persecuted (or
> > > >> martyrized) because of his/her
> scientific
> > views?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Marcio
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
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Received on Mon Mar 2 08:44:56 2009

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