Re: [asa] Two questions...Ayala's article

From: Preston Garrison <>
Date: Sun Mar 01 2009 - 23:16:14 EST

>Excellent discussion Preston. Yes, the things you mention are
>problems for any kind of "recent representative" view. My response
>would be that God didn't give us any details up any such things, so
>we don't need to know. At some point we have to acknowledge that
>there were "humans" before "Adam" who in many ways were not like us
>-- Homo Habilus, Homo Erectus, Homo Heidelbergensis, and so on. If
>we acknowledge this, the inevitable question is, what was the moral
>and spiritual status of these human species dating back four million
>years or so, which were so like us and yet so not like us? We just
>don't know. But I think God wants to tell us is that we all are
>human, both beautiful and corrupt at the root, and corporately and
>individually responsible before Him.
Obviously this doesn't in itself require any kind of biological /
genetic / geneological connection with a first pair. Lots of people
hold the sort of view you're proposing. The problem with that view,
IMHO, is that it tends to become Pelagian -- it tends to suggest that
"sin" is just a social problem and that human beings qua human beings
are capable of doing better by themselves.

My response is that there is no such thing as "by themselves." Like
my atheist friends, people may think that they are "by themselves,"
but He is always there, whether we know it or not, whether we want
Him there or not.

Every good gift, every bit of knowledge that anyone has, comes from
Him. Augustine knew it. Aquinas knew it. The writer of Proverbs knew
it. There is only one way to get rid of Him, and that is to go on
with either indifference or pride (and hatred) until there is no love
left for Him to get ahold of us by. And indifference in the end will
be replaced by pride and hatred, so in the end all roads down
converge and all roads up converge. How do we switch from one kind of
road to the other? That is a big mystery.

It's Sidney (the heavenly City) or the bush (the wasteland and
burning vine fragments of Hell,) and those are the only
possibilities. The path to one or the other is a long and winding
way, but you end up in one or the other, and it depends on what you

Any view can go off the tracks, this one or any other. Show me what
view you prefer, and I think I can make a good guess how it can go
off the tracks.

Just love the people you meet along the way, and that will fan the
flame of love in them, and pray for them, and scold the ones who are
getting a big head, if the Spirit leads you to; ask Him to show them
the truth about themselves and to show you the truth about yourself.


I'm guessing the beer in Sydney is excellent.

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Received on Sun Mar 1 23:16:41 2009

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