RE: [asa] evidence for design

From: Alexanian, Moorad <>
Date: Sat Jan 31 2009 - 09:25:00 EST

If there is heaven and hell and if someone can teach someone else into accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, is that not the greatest deed or action a human can do and would that not classify as the ultimate miracle?
From: [] On Behalf Of Schwarzwald []
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 3:10 AM
Subject: Re: [asa] evidence for design

I'd have more to say about this, however, one thing has struck me. In the NT, aren't there multiple places where it's mentioned that humans will work 'miracles'?

On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Don Winterstein <<>> wrote:
Yesterday I wrote: "The witness of the fossils as humans interpret them ... is that all results are haphazard in the sense that they convey no evidence of having been desired by an intelligent being."

The long and convoluted history of organic evolution gives no evidence that an intelligent being was in control. (There is an exception.) If this big picture of Earth's organisms contains no evidence of intelligent design, why should we expect to find evidence for intelligent design in organisms at the microscopic level? ID students have focused on microscopic things like bacterial flagella and blood clotting mechanisms. If some being has been designing organisms in our world and leaving evidence of it, why wouldn't the evidence more readily show up at the macro scale than at the micro scale? If there's none at the macro scale, why expect any at the micro scale?

Fine tuning of the universe can be taken as evidence of design at a different kind of macro scale and has become fairly convincing to many.

But the most convincing evidence that an intelligent being has been in control is: us, humanity. Not any old humanity, but modern humanity. Modern humans collectively have accomplished such feats of knowledge, understanding and control of themselves and the world that no one should be able to believe this monumental achievement was not deliberately intended at the outset. Arguments from fine tuning of the universe are good, but if we can step back from ourselves a bit for perspective, our own collective accomplishments should be far more persuasive that we were designed, we were intended. There's no reason to think anything arising spontaneously from inert matter should be able to gain awareness, understanding and control of itself and of the world. Yet it is the degree to which we've done such things that is most impressive and convincing. Collectively we have become some version of God.

A reasonable conclusion is that God intended us at the outset to collectively gain mastery. Despite Gen. 1:26, biblical teaching does not seem to anticipate this kind of mastery. The emphasis of NT teaching is such that we can legitimately say our mastery has come despite such teaching rather than because of it. If God intended that humanity achieve such mastery, the NT with its emphasis on sin and repentance, on spiritual knowledge of God and humans and on preparation for the afterlife has not told the whole story.

An alternative is that what humanity has accomplished has been done out of hubris in defiance of God and will receive his condemnation. I suspect none of us can believe this.


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Received on Sat Jan 31 09:26:00 2009

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