[asa] Creationsim and Dishonesty (was: Taggle ...)

From: Dick Fischer <dickfischer@verizon.net>
Date: Fri Jan 30 2009 - 11:15:50 EST

 Hi David:
Well, you have hit on a common thread that unfortunately seems to run
through all creationist organizations and their literature - dishonesty,
variously called "lying for Christ." Some twenty years ago I had a
couple of phone conversations with Ross. He mentioned he had offered a
three day session with ICR to discuss earth age. They agreed and
afterwards ICR continued undeterred. I then offered Ross the same deal.
I would come to California at my own expense and spend three days with
him on anthropology. He declined.
Then they (Ross and Rana) have the audacity to write "Who Was Adam? Did
they read my article, "In Search of the Historical Adam" on the ASA web
site? Did they read any ANE literature? Any? I spent twenty-seven
years pouring over Sumerian and Akkadian literature at the Library of
Congress and Virginia Theological Seminary just to be sure my facts were
right. I poured over hundreds of books and articles, read every Genesis
commentary in print. I sought counsel with noted Sumerologists. And
that's not about me. It's what I would expect anybody would do who
chooses to speak out in a commentary fashion about Holy Scripture.
We're not writing Harry Potter book reviews here. We are talking about
commenting in print on what I consider to be God's word and taking on a
double measure of accountability in the process. This is serious stuff
in my humble estimation with possible consequences beyond this life. My
publisher almost dropped me because I was such a stickler for details,
making continual small changes to make sure everything was thoroughly
A better question would be who are Ross and Rana to pretend they know
anything, ANYTHING, about Adam?
When Christ was really upset he called the scribes and Pharisees
"hypocrites." They took on proselytes, making them accountable and
through false teaching, they were condemned. Quoting Chester A. Riley,
"What a revolting development that is" (The Life of Riley for you
And that is exactly what I see in these creationist organizations. They
fill youngster's heads with tripe and when they learn better through
higher education many of them jettison their faith. I mentioned in an
earlier posting about attending a seminar by a local anthropologist on
creationism. She is an unbeliever. I emailed her and invited her for
lunch just to see if I can plant a few seeds. She agreed so if your not
doing anything special next Tuesday, please say a little prayer that I
can be a true and faithful witness. But my point is that we (ASA) can
be effective witnesses to the scientifically educated if we make the
effort, stay well read, and stick to what we can substantiate.
My question, David, is what is it you respect?
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of David Opderbeck
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 8:44 AM
To: James Patterson
Subject: Re: [asa] Taggle? (was: What Darwin Didn't Know - Dr. Fuz Rana)
Jim, I did ask Fuz about this last year. He acknowledged that the MHC
studies weren't addressed in Who Was Adam. He mentioned that he was
planning to write something on the MHC studies, but I have yet to see
that. I really hate to be so blunt, because I otherwise respect Fuz and
RTB, even if I disagree on some things, but: knowing about the MHC
studies and continuing to publish popular articles touting Mitochondrial
Eve without addressing the problems they raise is not honest.

David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 7:08 AM, James Patterson
<james000777@bellsouth.net> wrote:
James Patterson here. RTB member. Yes, I'm still here!

I see the same problem here that I see in RTB's listserve...a group of
like-minded people discussing things. You won't get any replies or
discussion from the RTB camp since I am the only active member here, and
I can say is that you'd have to ask Fuz. However, I think most of the
references, and answers are in "Who Was Adam?". But that's not the point
this reply.

If you would actually like to discuss issues like this (as well as
else), with other groups (not just RTB) I suggest that you consider
I believe Randy's gotten an invitation from Daniel McCarthy. It is a
where you can discuss topics in forums, share ideas, share documents,
videos, photos, audio files, write blogs, etc. You can do all of this in
public forum, open to all churches and organizations, and you can do
this in
your own private area, dedicated and open only to ASA.

The forum in the private section would serve much like the ASA listserve
does now, and the forum in the public section would serve as a place for

Currently, it's just getting started, and so there's only two churches,
RTB. I think it has great potential to serve as a meeting place for
Christians with a desire to learn more, not just about their own
but about the beliefs of others. In that same vein, it is a great place
share what you believe, test your beliefs against others in a common
and search for the truth. Make that...Truth.

The link: http://taggleinc.com

God bless, JP

PS: Still reading "Perspectives on an Evolving Creation" Excellent book,
well written and edited, and I have tons of margin notes to discuss,
once I
finish. I've been distracted several times by other projects. Currently
reading Bob Russell's chapter - very intriguing. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Murray Hogg
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] Fw: What Darwin Didn't Know article by Dr. Fuz Rana

Oh, I quite agree - if it WAS a mistake (as I suggest it was) to use
"mitochondrial Eve" as a descriptive due to its potential for confusion
somebody like Rana - who KNOWS the science and KNOWS the biblical story
- is
doubly culpable for propagating rather than rectifying the confusion.

I was thinking, rather, in terms of broad public perception and that the
reason such comments have an audience is because somebody adopted a
which is just a bit too evocative!

It might, additionally, simply reinforce my remarks about conservative
Christians not having categories for certain types of statement - after
those who have some appreciation of non-literal statements would hardly
into the trap of assuming that "mitochondrial Eve" means "the first
human woman from whom we are all directly descended".

Have you noticed that, when it comes to the origins debate, scientists


David Opderbeck wrote:
> True, except that Rana is a microbiologist, has read the relevant
> literature, and knows better.
> David W. Opderbeck
> Associate Professor of Law
> Seton Hall University Law School
> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Murray Hogg <muzhogg@netspace.net.au
> <mailto:muzhogg@netspace.net.au>> wrote:
> Hi David,
> I was reflecting about this overnight and it struck me that
> scientists probably only have themeselves to blame when they
> to engage in fanciful comments about "mitochondrial Eve".
> Personally, I'd have thought the potential for misunderstanding
> misrepresentation would be obvious.
> It's probably one for filing under "What on earth were they
> Blessings,
> Murray.
> David Opderbeck wrote:
> It's truly disappointing and frustrating that Rana continues
> popularize the notion that mitochondrial DNA studies "attest[]
> to" what Rana would offer as the Biblical notion of Adam and
> Eve. He knows better. He knows that mDNA studies don't
> establish a single Adam or Eve who were contemporary with each
> other, he knows that both mitchondrial Eve certainly lived
> a population of many other breeding pairs, and he knows of
> Ayala's "Myth of Mitochondrial Eve" paper and other similar
> population genetics studies. Any popular article or talk that
> makes such claims and doesn't address the foregoing is simply
> misleading.
> David W. Opderbeck
> Associate Professor of Law
> Seton Hall University Law School
> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:13 PM, D. F. Siemens, Jr.
> <dfsiemensjr@juno.com <mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
> <mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com <mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com>>>
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:07:01 -0800 (PST) John Walley
> <john_walley@yahoo.com <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com>
> <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com <mailto:john_walley@yahoo.com>>>
> writes:
> >
> > FYI..
> >
> > >
> > > Dr. Fuz Rana has a very good article in the latest
> > > magazine entitled What Darwin Didn't
> > > Know. Here is the link to it.
> > >
> > > http://charismamag.com/issues/index.php/cm209
> > >
> There are two matters that I didn't note having comments.
> first:
> "But some of the most recent advances related to
> relationships raise questions about evolution's validity.
> fragments of Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA from a 40,000-
> 100,000-year-old skeleton were found in West Germany. When
> scientists
> compared them with the corresponding fragment of human DNA,
> researchers discovered that Neanderthals made no
> to human
> genetics."
> What does a lack of contribution from contemporaries have
> do with
> evolution? The claim is that Homo sapiens, H.
> neanderthalensis and
> now H.
> floresiensis (?) all share ancestry, not that one is the
> ancestor of the
> others. Since H.s. and H.n. had overlapping ranges, I
> that some
> modern Europeans could still have Neanderthal inheritance.
> Mitochondrial
> DNA is inherited only though the mother. So, if a H.s. male
> fathered a
> son with a H.n. female, and the son fathered offspring with
> H.s.
> female, there would be no evidence in the mitochondria of
> H.n.
> genetics, though the chromosomal inheritence might be
> The second:
> "Scientific consensus confirms that humanity originated
> 100,000
> years ago in east Africa near the location ascribed to the
> Garden of
> Eden."
> I'll not use the vulgar but appropriate term to describe
> claim that
> East Africa is the Near East.
> Dave (ASA)
> Click now to find a divorce attorney near you!
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Received on Fri Jan 30 11:16:30 2009

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