Re: [asa] Darwin only biological evolution? (can anything exist without evolution?)

From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <>
Date: Mon Jan 12 2009 - 21:27:08 EST

I think there is more of an analogy between Beethoven and organic
evolution than allowed by Iain. He mentions some sources that were
incorporated into the symphony. It appears that parts of bacterial
genomes were incorporated into other bacteria as well as into eukaryote
nuclei and cytoplasm. If the one is evolution, seems that the other one
is too.

I am unfortunately not familiar with Beethoven's manuscripts, but I am
guessing that the original drafts were subject to alteration to ensure
their improvement. Is this all that distant from the alteration of
genomes under the influence of natural selection? Did Beethoven ever
start to make a change and remove it? If he did, we can expand the

However, usage does not favor the application of terms too broadly,
though it is common for axe grinders to deliberately expand usage to
press a point. Others simply test a change for effectiveness. If we go
back far enough, I think that "evolution" was narrowly applied to
embryonic and fetal development, which I have not encountered recently.

Additionally, I have encountered claims that most of the technical
language of science is "dead analogies". So the problem may involve which
analogies one will tolerate or understand. One person's relevant analogy
is sure to be another's nonsense. In attempting general persuasion,
probably the best procedure is to stick with generally accepted
Dave (ASA)

On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:30:08 +0000 "Iain Strachan"
<> writes:
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Michael Roberts
> <> wrote:
> > In fairness to Bernie, he is trying to present an alternative to
> YEC which
> > he escaped from. He is seeking to put this over to his fellow
> Christians who
> > are/were caught up with YEC and in terms they can understand. In
> that I
> > totally support him.
> Yes, but is it really going to persuade YECs to suggest that there
> is
> an evolutionary explanation to EVERYTHING?
> Patently Beethoven's Ninth Symphony did NOT evolve. Some of the
> ideas
> were derived from the Choral Fantasy, but the notion that the one
> evolved out of the other is ridiculous. It was put together by a
> creative genius, and some of the ideas in it were regarded as
> totally
> revolutionary. (The "r" makes a difference).
> There is just no way you can liken it to evolution. YECs object to
> "evolution-ism", and suggesting that everything evolved like that
> is
> precisely what they object to.
> Iain
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Received on Mon Jan 12 21:32:49 2009

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