Re: [asa] Attaining heaven -- a poll

From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
Date: Sat Dec 27 2008 - 22:57:25 EST

I take a different tack, considering a thoughtful point implicit in C. S.
Lewis's /The Great Divorce/. Human beings have been given the power of
choice, a freedom which even God does not override. We choose within the
natural and spiritual laws, not establish a counter. Additionally, God is
love, desiring the best for all his creatures. Can anyone imagine a
greater agony than being in the presence of the thrice holy deity without
being prepared for it? without wanting it? To put is simply, hell is
God's loving provision for those who would be in agony in his presence.
Dave (ASA)

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:03:24 -0800 (PST) Dave Manley <dm020954@yahoo.com>
writes:
As a Christian who believes that the Bible teaches "For just as in Adam
all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.", I believe with the
majority in the polls. One of the earlier posts on this thread
Schwarzwald stated, "There is a difference between believing that people
of other faiths can achieve salvation, and that other religions
themselves 'offer eternal life'." Though I am not a literalist in
interpretation, I do believe that Jesus is the way the truth and the
life, and life is found only in him. I don't believe that salvation
happens in this "aeon" (or age) for all; it's apparent some never come to
know him in this life.

Since it would be to long ( and probably boring) to go through scriptures
to show why I believe in eventual salvation for all, the verses in 1 Cor
13 on love state "13:7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all
things, endures all things. 13:8Love never ends." If I am supposed to
love like this, how much more will our Savior and Heavenly Father?

Now I'll grant that the majority of the respondents to the polls haven't
thought it out systematically, God has given us a sense of right and
wrong. The idea of an eternal punishment goes against any but the worst
of our concience. So, maybe our God-given sense of justice and mercy are
in line with the One who gave it.

Dave M

From: David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com>
To: John Burgeson (ASA member) <hossradbourne@gmail.com>
Cc: asa <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 6:02:50 AM
Subject: Re: [asa] Attaining heaven -- a poll

Its an interesting survey. As George points out, a survey on ignorance?
:)

Maybe I am simple minded, but I look at it in a very practical way. Lets
assume God doesn't exist. That means that the very best a person can
hope for is to spend a few years on this planet, and then spend the rest
of eternity six feet under. And everyone you know will reach the same
fate. Whether they were good or bad doesn't matter - all will be pushing
up daisies. Thats the very best we can hope for. I think that is rather
grim. Its certainly grim enough. I'll call that option I.

(BTW, two days before Christmas I finalized the cremation of my mother.
This isn't a theoretical matter. Its real).

It could be worse. One possibly could live on - and be subjected to
horrible situations that make one wish for death. You don't need hell
for that. Just being forced to live with tyrants for which there are no
limits to their actions, with no consequences, can lead one to want to
escape into death. I'll call these undesirable situations option II.

Are any other options available?

OK, along comes someone like God who can save us from that grim reality
of the very best we could look forward to, which is Option I. A smart
person would jump at the opportunity!!!! But what do people do instead?
They complain about how unfair it is that their benefactor doesn't suit
their whims. That would be like the millionaire reality show where the
undercover millionaire writes a check for $100,000 to you, and you slap
his hand and blame him for being a millionaire - and refuse to cash the
check to spite him. Would that be dumb, or insane?

Death is a good thing given the consequences of sin and the natural human
condition. Who would want to be dying of cancer for 100,000 years?
Whether you were good or bad has nothing to do with it.

All religions exist because people have a yearning for something other
than their natural condition. That shows how bad they think their natural
condition really is. But how does blaming the solution change their
natural condition? I think it is the unbeliever who is engaging in
wishful thinking.

But, as I said, I must be sort of simple minded. I see the Christ as
absolutely WONDERFUL. If someone thinks there is another way besides the
Christ, what they need to show is that the other way gets the job done.

-Dave C

 

 

  

On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 11:02 AM, John Burgeson (ASA member)
<hossradbourne@gmail.com> wrote:

Of course, a poll that says most folks think that Jesus is not "the
only way" has no effect on the truth or falsity of that claim. But it
is interesting..

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/opinion/27blow.html?th&emc=th

By CHARLES M. BLOW
Published: December 26, 2008
In June, the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life published a
controversial survey in which 70 percent of Americans said that they
believed religions other than theirs could lead to eternal life.

Earl Wilson/The New York Times
Charles M. Blow

This threw evangelicals into a tizzy. After all, the Bible makes it
clear that heaven is a velvet-roped V.I.P. area reserved for
Christians. Jesus said so: "I am the way, the truth and the life: no
man cometh unto the Father, but by me." But the survey suggested that
Americans just weren't buying that.

The evangelicals complained that people must not have understood the
question. The respondents couldn't actually believe what they were
saying, could they?

So in August, Pew asked the question again. (They released the results
last week.) Sixty-five percent of respondents said — again — that
other religions could lead to eternal life. But this time, to clear up
any confusion, Pew asked them to specify which religions. The
respondents essentially said all of them.

And they didn't stop there. Nearly half also thought that atheists
could go to heaven — dragged there kicking and screaming, no doubt —
and most thought that people with no religious faith also could go.

What on earth does this mean?

One very plausible explanation is that Americans just want good things
to come to good people, regardless of their faith. As Alan Segal, a
professor of religion at Barnard College told me: "We are a
multicultural society, and people expect this American life to
continue the same way in heaven." He explained that in our society, we
meet so many good people of different faiths that it's hard for us to
imagine God letting them go to hell. In fact, in the most recent
survey, Pew asked people what they thought determined whether a person
would achieve eternal life. Nearly as many Christians said you could
achieve eternal life by just being a good person as said that you had
to believe in Jesus.

Also, many Christians apparently view their didactic text as flexible.
According to Pew's August survey, only 39 percent of Christians
believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, and 18 percent
think that it's just a book written by men and not the word of God at
all. In fact, on the question in the Pew survey about what it would
take to achieve eternal life, only 1 percent of Christians said living
life in accordance with the Bible.

Now, there remains the possibility that some of those polled may not
have understood the implications of their answers. As John Green, a
senior fellow at the Pew Forum, said, "The capacity of ignorance to
influence survey outcomes should never be underestimated." But I don't
think that they are ignorant about this most basic tenet of their
faith. I think that they are choosing to ignore it ... for goodness
sake.

--
Burgy (In the above, I'd object to the claim that "the Bible makes it
clear.")
www.burgy.50megs.com
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Received on Sat Dec 27 23:02:41 2008

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